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Thread: VMRO/IMRO - Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Only because Bulgaria lost against the Serbo-Greek alliance in the last three wars. Although I won't disagree that certain aspects of IMRO's activity were detrimental to the cause (fratricidal infighting mostly and some of the tactics applied by the later organization).
    Bulgaria failed to agree with Greece to a fair share of the spoils of the first Balkan war BEFORE the beginning of the war. Even worse, Bulgaria had no navy to take over Constantinople, which would be a very lucrative bargaining card if it wanted to exchange it for the bulk of Macedonia from Greece.

    Greece had the navy... But not enough army to outflank the Ottomans... Furthermore it could not cross the Gallipoli straights. Not even the Entente could do so a few years later... You had a much easier access point.

    Amazingly, during the second Balkan war, an outnumbered Greek army flushed out the Bulgarians from their positions and run them down all the way to the Kresna pass...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralos View Post
    i dont expect anything better from them,look how they changed from being proud bulgarians to thinking they're the nepwhes of alexander the great
    serbia has created a torn for us all,they did this condition to them,greek people should be aware of this
    These folks were not clinging into the Ancient Macedonian heritage while the Serbs had a leash on their neck. I am sorry Dralos, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    These folks were not clinging into the Ancient Macedonian heritage while the Serbs had a leash on their neck. I am sorry Dralos, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
    i'm not saying that but the serbs gave them the name macedonia and created this nationality so they created this problem,you understand now?
    and so now they're independent but dont want to be bulgarians so they seek after the macedonian nationality wich has nothing to do with slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    Bulgaria failed to agree with Greece to a fair share of the spoils of the first Balkan war BEFORE the beginning of the war. Even worse, Bulgaria had no navy to take over Constantinople, which would be a very lucrative bargaining card if it wanted to exchange it for the bulk of Macedonia from Greece.

    Greece had the navy... But not enough army to outflank the Ottomans... Furthermore it could not cross the Gallipoli straights. Not even the Entente could do so a few years later... You had a much easier access point.

    Amazingly, during the second Balkan war, an outnumbered Greek army flushed out the Bulgarians from their positions and run them down all the way to the Kresna pass...
    The Greek army was exhausted and faced logistical difficulties but resisted strenuously and launched local counter-attacks. By July 14 the Greek forces were outnumbered by the now counterattacking Bulgarian armies, and the Bulgarian General Staff, attempting to encircle the Greeks in a Cannae-type battle, was applying pressure on their flanks.[3] The Greeks launched counter-attacks at Mehomia and to the west of Kresna and by July 17 the Bulgarian attacks had subsided somewhat. On the eastern flank, the Greek army launched an counterattack towards Mehomia through the Predela pass. The offensive was stopped by the Bulgarian army on the eastern side of the pass and fighting ground to a stalemate. On the western flank, an offensive was launched against Tsarevo Selo with the objection of reaching the Serbian lines. This failed and the Bulgarian army continued advancing, especially in the South.[6][7][verification needed] However, after a three days fighting at the sectors of Pehchevo and Mahomia, the Greek forces retained their positions.[8] Meanwhile, king Constantine, who had neglected the initial Bulgarian requests for truce, now informed Venizelos, that his army was "physically and morally exhausted" and urged him to seek cessation of hostilities[3] through Romanian mediation. The resulted general armistice (signed on 18/31 July 1913 in Bucharest) ended one of the bloodiest battles of the Second Balkan War.
    Only the end of the war caused by the Romanian entry prevented the total annihilation of your army, we already had put the Serbs to their place.

    Anyway, we didn't want Constantinople that badly. We only wanted what we perceived as rightfully ours. Something which cannot be said for the Serbs especially.

    The disagreements we had with you were minor and could have been settled in a much more civilized manner had you not seized the opportunity to sign a secret pact with the Serbs...

    In the distance of time I can say that it would have been really splendid and spectacular if we didn't squabble over Macedonia but focused our energy on completely and conclusively throwing Turkey out of Europe...

    ------
    On topic. IMRO despite it's flaws managed successfully to fend off Greek and Serb armed propaganda in Macedonia and kept the Bulgarian character of the Slavic population up untill it's ultimate demise after WWII and the communist massacres that followed...

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    Memorial ossuary of Aleksandar Stamboliyski

    The coup d’état of 9 June 1923 and the fall of Stamboliyski

    Оn March 23, 1923 he signed the Treaty of Niš with the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and undertook the obligation to suppress the operations of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) carried out from Bulgarian territory.[2] On 9 June 1923, Stamboliyski’s government was overthrown by a coup composed of the right wing factions of the Military League, the National Alliance, and the army led by Aleksandar Tsankov. With the Communist faction refusing to intervene, Stamboliyski was taken prisoner in his native village of Slavovitsa, where he had fled following the coup d’état and was organizing a counter-insurgence that was large in number but weak in arms. He was brutally tortured and executed by the army immediately following his arrest. The IMRO had a prominent role in assassinating him because of his signature on the Treaty of Niš.[3] His hand that signed the Treaty of Niš was cut off.[4] His head was sent to Sofia in a box of biscuits.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Stamboliyski

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    Още на 10 юни военният министър Иван Вълков дава устна заповед на капитан Иван Харлаков Стамболийски да бъде заловен и убит и той заминава с група военни за Пазарджик, където операцията по залавянето се ръководи от полковник Славейко Василев. Стамболийски прави опит да се добере до двореца в Кричим, но на 13 юни е заловен при село Голак, след което е отведен в Пазарджик. Тук го предават на групата на капитан Харлаков, който го завежда във вилата му в Славовица. Там той е убит от група членове на ВМРО, водена от скопския войвода Величко Велянов.[3]


    Yeah, I sometimes think that even if Bulgarian leadership was to agree with Serb and Greek demands after the First Balkan War the Macedonian lobby in Sofia would have rebelled and called for war with the allies anyway... It just wasn't a viable option

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    Quote Originally Posted by dralos View Post
    i'm not saying that but the serbs gave them the name macedonia and created this nationality so they created this problem,you understand now?
    and so now they're independent but dont want to be bulgarians so they seek after the macedonian nationality wich has nothing to do with slavs
    The Serbs called the place "Vardarska Banovina"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardarska_banovina



    On the other hand, the man who allowed them to have a different name was no other than a Croat/Slovene half breed, Marshall Tito, and the Montenegrin Tempo. None of them was really involved, they were still... Too Bulgarians to be trusted!!!

    I am sorry

    I am sorry Dralos, but as Eleutherios Venizelos said once: "Greece is too small a country to commit such a grand treachery". Guess who would be the victim of the betrayal...

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Only the end of the war caused by the Romanian entry prevented the total annihilation of your army, we already had put the Serbs to their place.
    You are lacking proof of that. You shall never be able to provide one...

    Anyway, we didn't want Constantinople that badly. We only wanted what we perceived as rightfully ours. Something which cannot be said for the Serbs especially.
    Why did you get all the way to the Çatalca line then?



    I understand that the Serbs forfeited their promises and betrayed you. Nevertheless, we didn't promise you anything.

    The disagreements we had with you were minor and could have been settled in a much more civilized manner had you not seized the opportunity to sign a secret pact with the Serbs...
    Why didn't you withdraw the Bulgarian detachment from Thessaloniki then - which was useless in there anyway - and above all, why didn't you negotiate with Greece BEFORE you attacked the Serbs, because, I remind you, you attacked the Serbs, the Serbs did not attack you!

    In the distance of time I can say that it would have been really splendid and spectacular if we didn't squabble over Macedonia but focused our energy on completely and conclusively throwing Turkey out of Europe...
    Agreed.

    ------
    On topic. IMRO despite it's flaws managed successfully to fend off Greek and Serb armed propaganda in Macedonia and kept the Bulgarian character of the Slavic population up untill it's ultimate demise after WWII and the communist massacres that followed...
    Nope, the VMRO was pretty much demised at 1936:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMRO#Interwar_period

    The conflict grew into a leadership struggle and Mihailov soon in turn ordered the assassination in 1928 of a rival leader, General Aleksandar Protogerov, which sparked a fratricidal war between "Mihailovists" and "Protogerovists". The less numerous Protogerovists soon became allied with Yugoslavia and certain Bulgarian military circles with fascist leanings and who favoured rapprochement with Yugoslavia. The policy of assassionations was effective in making Serbian rule in Vardar Macedonia feel insecure but in turn provoked brutal reprisals on the local peasant population. Having lost a lot of popular support in Vardar Macedonia due to his policies, Mihailov favoured the "internationalization" of the Macedonian question.
    Numerous assassinations were carried out by IMRO agents in many countries, the majority in Yugoslavia. The most spectacular of these was the assassination of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia and the French Foreign Minister Louis Barthou in Marseille in 1934 in collaboration with the Croatian Ustashi. The killing was carried out by the VMRO assassin Vlado Chernozemski and happened after the suppression of IMRO following the 19 May 1934 military coup in Bulgaria. IMRO's constant fratricidal killings and assassinations abroad provoked some within Bulgarian military after the coup of 19 May 1934 to take control and break the power of the organization, which had come to be seen as a gangster organization inside Bulgaria and a band of assassins outside it. In 1934 Mihailov was forced to escape to Turkey. He ordered to his supporters not to resist to the Bulgarian army and to accept the disarmament peacefully, thus avoiding fratricides, destabilization of Bulgaria, civil war or external invasion.[35] Many inhabitants of Pirin Macedonia met this disbandment with satisfaction because it was perceived as relief from an unlawful and quite often brutal parallel authority. IMRO kept its organization alive in exile in various countries, but ceased to be an active force in Macedonian politics except for brief moments during World War II. Meanwhile a resolution of the Comintern for recognition of a distinct ethnic Macedonian ethnicity, which was accepted also by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United), was published in January, 1934. IMRO (United) remained active until 1936, when it was absorbed into the Balkan Communist Federation.[36]
    As far as Greece is concerned, the "brief moments during the WWII" was the presence of numerous collaborators with the Bulgarian Okhrana and the NAZIS in three out of the twelve (back then) prefectures of Macedonia. Still, those collaborators, although numerous, were no match for the Communist rebels of ELAS, who managed to beat and later absorb them, and a few years later the Greek Communists were no match for the Allied effort to get rid of Communism from Greece.

    Still, only 3 (Kastoria, Florina, Edessa) out of the 12 prefectures of Greece, and little presence in the larger ones (virtually no presence in #1 Thessaloniki, and a meak one in my native #2 Serres) shoes that the VMRO had lost the conflict long ago.

    ...Especially because neither Kastoria, nor Florina, not even Edessa have a border with Bulgaria. The Bulgarian borders begin at Serres and cross into Drama and then Thrace...

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post


    Yeah, I sometimes think that even if Bulgarian leadership was to agree with Serb and Greek demands after the First Balkan War the Macedonian lobby in Sofia would have rebelled and called for war with the allies anyway... It just wasn't a viable option
    But that's what happened when you lost EVEN MORE land, and then Stamboliyski came to power, and - unfortunately for you - The one who had the public opinion in his side was Stamboliyski, and not the emigres. The emigres would have even less power at 1912.

    Didn't it occur to you that you could not win a war while divided? Well, I guess that the VMRO was always splintered in a thousand pieces, how could they possibly agree with Stamboliysky?

    In any case you are no exception in the Balkans. Greece had its' own National schism between Venizelos and King Constantine I and Venizelos, while the Serbs of Dragutin "Apis" Dimitrijević had the Black hand which brought about the WWI, amongst others!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Schism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Serbia)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    You are lacking proof of that. You shall never be able to provide one...
    The Greek army was caught in pincers, overstretched and with failing logistics. You know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    Why did you get all the way to the Çatalca line then?





    I understand that the Serbs forfeited their promises and betrayed you. Nevertheless, we didn't promise you anything.Why didn't you withdraw the Bulgarian detachment from Thessaloniki then - which was useless in there anyway - and above all, why didn't you negotiate with Greece BEFORE you attacked the Serbs, because, I remind you, you attacked the Serbs, the Serbs did not attack you!Agreed.
    Ferdinand was one greedy bastard. A lot of bad decisions we took back then, I admit that.

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