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Thread: The Pomaks of Western Thrace

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    Quote Originally Posted by IberoHellenic View Post


    Look how much turkish they feel themselves:

    Pomak students marching on 25 March.



    what's the proof these girls are Pomak? Greece moved many people to that area since the end of the war. Turks+Pomaks maybe minority today. Pomaks are Muslim Bulgarians actually but they are heavily Turkified as historical fact as they lived inside Balkan Turks for how many centuries. After the Balkan war, Orthodox Bulgarians made them pay heavy price for this, there were case of forced conversions to Orthodoxy but it didn't work in the end of the day.

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    Hi, gravedigger Kaspias is here.

    Since so many people ask about Pomaks i want to bump this thread. I read whole text of OP, i can say most of them true, maybe all. I also read comments too and 90% of them bullshit. Every people claim different thing as in real life. There were some people in this forum judging my identify, i hope they can understand me after read the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alially View Post
    Today, pomaks are living in very isolated villages, the rest identified themselves as Turkish because they don't want to assimilate into Greek agency.
    Also there are lots of intermarriage between Turks and pomaks. So those children identified as Turks
    This is true. However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspias View Post
    Hi, gravedigger Kaspias is here.

    Since so many people ask about Pomaks i want to bump this thread. I read whole text of OP, i can say most of them true, maybe all. I also read comments too and 90% of them bullshit. Every people claim different thing as in real life. There were some people in this forum judging my identify, i hope they can understand me after read the text.



    This is true. However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.
    What is the relationship like with the Greek state?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crn Volk View Post
    What is the relationship like with the Greek state?
    Not good. They have same opinions with Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspias View Post
    However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.
    Pomak is Bulgarian. Muslim one, but Bulgarian nevertheless. There are not only Orthodox Bulgarians, there are catholics and other faiths, including muslim. So do you feel Bulgarian or you view Pomak as totally different ethnicity to Bulgarians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioan assen View Post
    Pomak is Bulgarian. Muslim one, but Bulgarian nevertheless. There are not only Orthodox Bulgarians, there are catholics and other faiths, including muslim. So do you feel Bulgarian or you view Pomak as totally different ethnicity to Bulgarians?
    It is clear we are not totally different than Bulgarians. Language is similar even same changing villages to villages. Genetically we are homogeneus without any other mix. Bulgarians have different genetic variants too. The main difference is obviously religion. I dont know current case in Bulgaria, but i think they are getting absorbed in society. But Greece Pomaks' view of Bulgarians as enemy or neutral another nation. They actually have some historical reasons for that. For me, i should say i don't have any problem with both Bulgarian and Turk identity. But i prefer to identify myself as Pomak, as a different ethnic than Bulgarians. Unlike general view we have totally different culture. More similar with Turks because of religion. To sum up, as i said, i don't have any problem with Bulgarian identity and i like them actually. I just prefer to Pomak identify, there are a lot of assimulation process and i feel the pressure since my childhood. I want to stay as Pomak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspias View Post
    It is clear we are not totally different than Bulgarians. Language is similar even same changing villages to villages. Genetically we are homogeneus without any other mix. Bulgarians have different genetic variants too. The main difference is obviously religion. I dont know current case in Bulgaria, but i think they are getting absorbed in society. But Greece Pomaks' view of Bulgarians as enemy or neutral another nation. They actually have some historical reasons for that. For me, i should say i don't have any problem with both Bulgarian and Turk identity. But i prefer to identify myself as Pomak, as a different ethnic than Bulgarians. Unlike general view we have totally different culture. More similar with Turks because of religion. To sum up, as i said, i don't have any problem with Bulgarian identity and i like them actually. I just prefer to Pomak identify, there are a lot of assimulation process and i feel the pressure since my childhood. I want to stay as Pomak.
    Interesting take. The genetics in my view could hardly be a proof of ethnicity though as I feel we are very mixed on the Balkans. However I don't think the Pomak-BG difference could be big (if any). I suppose its like how a regional group (for example Moesians) compares to the Bulgarians as a whole. There would be differences of course. Maybe more so with the Pomaks, which till recently, were more close off and the intermarriages with other Bulgarians were more rare, due to religion, no doubt.
    As for if Pomaks are absorbed in the Bulgarian society: I would say yes (younger ones at least), but there are some of course who prefer to stick to their society and to not intermarry with other Bulgarians. I had an acquaintance - Bulgarian pomak, who was religious (very observing muslim) who did see himself as somewhat different to the main body of Bulgarians (at least I got that impression), but said his sister was not religious, married to Bulgarian and he said she felt like Bulgarian nationally. So I guess it depends on the person really.
    There have been clashes somewhat between Pomaks and orthodox Bulgarians historically, but I d say that doesn't prove we have different origin. Just look at the Macedono-Bulgarian relations in the last 50 years...
    Its strange how on the Balkans the religion is stronger factor than say language/culture/ethnicity. Just look how the Bulgarians in Northern Greece were Hellenized or how Greeks in Southern Black Sea coast were Bulgarized. Its astonishing that those different ethnicities became part of the main ethnicity, into which country they decided to stay. I d say its due to the same religion. The Pomaks still are in a sense closed off to other Bulgarians (or it is probably both ways), cause of the religion. The only Balkan group who managed to integrate its people from all faiths, strangely enough, is the Albanians.
    As for the language: maybe because of this closeness, the Pomaks in a way have managed to retain their dialect (not that different to official Bulgarian though). The main difference is that they have retained more Turkish words, which were until recently shared with other Bulgarians, but in the 20th century those words were replaced in the official Bulgarian with Russian or western ones. I know those old Turkish words (that disappeared in official Bulgarian), but they sound simply archaic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioan assen View Post
    Interesting take. The genetics in my view could hardly be a proof of ethnicity though as I feel we are very mixed on the Balkans. However I don't think the Pomak-BG difference could be big (if any). I suppose its like how a regional group (for example Moesians) compares to the Bulgarians as a whole. There would be differences of course. Maybe more so with the Pomaks, which till recently, were more close off and the intermarriages with other Bulgarians were more rare, due to religion, no doubt.
    As for if Pomaks are absorbed in the Bulgarian society: I would say yes (younger ones at least), but there are some of course who prefer to stick to their society and to not intermarry with other Bulgarians. I had an acquaintance - Bulgarian pomak, who was religious (very observing muslim) who did see himself as somewhat different to the main body of Bulgarians (at least I got that impression), but said his sister was not religious, married to Bulgarian and he said she felt like Bulgarian nationally. So I guess it depends on the person really.
    There have been clashes somewhat between Pomaks and orthodox Bulgarians historically, but I d say that doesn't prove we have different origin. Just look at the Macedono-Bulgarian relations in the last 50 years...
    Its strange how on the Balkans the religion is stronger factor than say language/culture/ethnicity. Just look how the Bulgarians in Northern Greece were Hellenized or how Greeks in Southern Black Sea coast were Bulgarized. Its astonishing that those different ethnicities became part of the main ethnicity, into which country they decided to stay. I d say its due to the same religion. The Pomaks still are in a sense closed off to other Bulgarians (or it is probably both ways), cause of the religion. The only Balkan group who managed to integrate its people from all faiths, strangely enough, is the Albanians.
    As for the language: maybe because of this closeness, the Pomaks in a way have managed to retain their dialect (not that different to official Bulgarian though). The main difference is that they have retained more Turkish words, which were until recently shared with other Bulgarians, but in the 20th century those words were replaced in the official Bulgarian with Russian or western ones. I know those old Turkish words (that disappeared in official Bulgarian), but they sound simply archaic.
    I agree most of words you said.

    Genetically yes, there are some differences. I can post some examples from Bulgarian and Pomak individuals' genetic results if you interested. Difference is like between Bulgarians and Macedonians, similar amounts.

    About absorbing, yes i was actually expecting this. Same case in Turkey too, even 90% of Pomaks who live in Turkey hate their Pomak identity and identify themselves as Turk. It is normal to Pomaks identify themselves as Bulgarian in Bulgaria. But in Greece things are different. Pomaks live with Turks - 90% of them already intermarried with Turks. - Some prefer identify himself/herself as Pomak and some Turk. Changing person to person. Some still live in isolated villages and even don't know Greek. All of them bilingual Pomak and Turkish. Speaking Turkish mostly.

    Yes, there was some clashes but i think this hatred not directly from them. Bulgaria-Macedonia clashes are mostly politic. On the other hand there were no politic conflict between Pomaks and anyone. This was only about religion. Orthodox gangs were attacking muslim villages till the 1990s, from the late 1800s. - my grandmother's sister and her husband died during one of this attacks. Of course they were just random people and have nothing to do with government. We have a song about them:




    Perhaps you know, there were forbidden zone in Greek side of the Rhodope Mountains. It was because of this attacks and communist movements. Inside of this zone there were no security, and all Pomaks were living in there. They were using different passports in order to enter the zone. Normal Greek or Turk people couldn't enter there. (Removed in 1995)

    Pomaks couldn't organized and couldn't defend themselves, my grandfather were telling me 10% of the population died or kidnapped between 60-80s. But i'm not average Pomak example, my family was reeve-muhtar of Pomak villages of their region. Of course there were some people live peacefully. In sum, the main reason why Pomaks see Bulgarians are enemy is this. And quite recent conflict. I think it won't change for Greece Pomaks, most of them migrated to Turkish villages from their mountain villages after Greece government removed forbidden zone. They basically think Turks saved them. Turkish Pomaks already assimilated. I'm even not talking about Balkan Wars or Russo-Turkish war. Pomaks still remember these days, and still telling to their children. They see Serbs as biggest evils of the world. Even we have an expression. "Wicked as a Serb"

    I admire Albanians for reach this. I agree with you.

    Pomak language is dying, Greece and Turkish Pomaks are speaking Turkish. Bulgarian Pomaks are speaking actual Bulgarian.

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    haplogroup Q L330, so


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post
    haplogroup Q L330, so
    What? My paternal grandfather is Turk, not Pomak.

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