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what about this guy?
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Kurganoid Balto-Cro-Magnon type sounds like something that Agrippa guy has invented. Really, Agrippa seems very un-Germanic in many ways. He is looking like a Med and is spiritually a Med. I question his integrity. He is also the reason why a minor sub-type like "Atlantid" is now mentioned in every stupid thread, even distinguished into Atlanto-Med, Atlantid, North-Atlantid, just that this brown-eyed and swarthy guy could nordify himself
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Originally Posted by Silver Lining
I agree. Agrippa from what I read seemed a dedicated and clever guy who divulged (and re adapted) Eickstedt and Scwidetsky stuff, which for non German speakers is very useful.
(Although like many Germans he had what seemed a scale of values in which Nordic-Atlantid and the inexistant CM are somehow good, while Alpines, Balts, Pigmies and Australoids are “negative”).
-However the problem are the people that followed him without having read the sources or mixing them and confusing them with Coon and Lundman’s systems.
That’s why now we are infested with”Atlantid” and “Pontid” and the ridiculous -id swedish suffix (Its used even on Wikipedia!). Also the “Cro Magnid” thing -WHICH NO ANTROPOLOGIST USED”.
For some reason, especially on TA people have a fetish for “CM”. Everyone wants to be a CM. especially Balkanians. Well You aren’t!
1) Alpine,Dinaric,Mediterranean,Baltic and Nordic should be enough to identify most Europeans.
2) These are not races, just examples of possible variants. Have fun with them but don’t take it seriously.
3) No one is a Steppe Warrior or a Hunter Gatherer. Stop Frowning in your selfies to look badass, looks like you are taking a s*it.
4) We are all WC: Westernized Consumers.
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All of Agrippa's 'work' was done using solely superficial visual impressions, and this is what makes his whole method severely flawed. Coon's work was also mostly based on visual impressions, but at least he knew what he was talking about; Agrippa didn't used archeology nor linguistics to back up his claims, and could only repeat some rehearsed fancy terms to denote certain morphological traits. Everything he did was to play with words.
Anyway, the typological approach of physical anthropology was abandoned already in the late 90s, craniometric analysis is the future. By using certain statistical methods, you can even guess unknown individual's ancestry with a respectable accuracy. Dra. Nandar Yukyi summed it up pretty well.
Traditionally, anthropologists have applied a typological approach on human
crania in order to estimate ancestry. The typological approach is a visual- and experiencebased
method through which ancestry is estimated. This approach depends on a list of
4
morphoscopic or nonmetric traits, which are assessed on a binary scale by marking either
the presence or absence of a given trait. However, not only does the subjective nature of
the typological approach increase the chances of inter-observer error, but the approach
also lacks standardization (Hefner, 2009). In contrast, craniometric analysis, which is
based on measurements taken from landmarks on the cranium, is more reliable than the
typological approach. Thus, by analyzing metric data from the crania of individuals of
known populations, anthropologists can narrow down the list of possible matches in
forensic cases that involve unidentified human remains.
Last edited by Token; 10-05-2018 at 03:11 PM.
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Agrippa took his classification system from Rainer Knussmann (1996, based on Schwidetzky/Eickstedt) but mixed it up with Lundman and Coon. You may say that this has some merit, but what really, really sticks out is this stupid obsession of creating a continuum that goes from Nordid to North-Atlantid to Atlantid to Atlanto-Med (when the three latter terms mean mostly the same thing!) and from Nordid to North Pontid to Pontid to East Med. And then even throws around terms like "Atlanto-Pontid", whatever. You cannot make typology more arbitrary. One should not go personal, but like I said, the main reason is that Agrippa does not want to be honest with himself, and that would be classifying himself as Mediterranid and not some sort of semi-Nordic "Atlantid".
IIRC he also misrepresented something about Japan on purpose to fit his agenda.
Well, it is ancient history and nobody's perfect, but his legacy still hunts online anthro.
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Eastern European Upper Palaeolithic survivors("Balto-CM", "Eastern-CM" etc) from Coon.
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Those are uralic types. Finnougric not baltic...
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Carleton Coon
Ladogan: I propose to give this name to the descendants of the mesocephalic and brachycephalic forest-dwelling population of northern Europe east of the Baltic in Kammkeramik times. This type is a blend of a partly mongoloid brachycephalic element with a mesocephalic form of general Upper Palaeolithic aspect; these elements are seen in crania from Lake Ladoga and Salis Roje. Corded and/or Danubian elements are inextricably blended here, although the mongoloid and Upper Palaeolithic elements seem at present more important.Fifteen crania from the Neolithic of the shores of Lake Ladoga are almost equally divided into two types; a normal South Russian dolichocephal, presumably of the extreme long-headed type, with narrow face and nose; and a mesocephal which does indeed have a Finnish appearance in the modern sense. Skulls of the latter type are characterized by low orbits, short, broad noses, and wide faces, which as individual examples exceed the accompanying brain case in width. The face and head form bears a certain Cro-Magnon-like implication, and may indeed indicate descent from some eastern Upper Palaeolithic form as yet undiscovered.The term Neo-Danubian has been used in this work to designate a general class of central and eastern European blond or partially blond brachycephals who seem to be derived in a racial sense from a de-Corded Nordic (and hence Danubian) prototype brachycephalized by Ladogan admixture....the Neo-Danubian is a variable racial type derived from a blending of the Danubian element in the Nordic combination with eastern European Upper Palaeolithic survivors.
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At Salis Roje, in Livonia on the Gulf of Riga, another collection of thirty-one Neolithic crania is even more varied.This includes not only the types present at Lake Ladoga, but also a short-statured, brachycephalic form, with a long face, slight prognathism, high orbits, and a broad nose. Morphologically, there is said to be a mongoloid appearance to these crania. This adds, therefore, a third element to the northern forest population during the Neolithic.
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Already told you... He's talking about finnougric livonian people who inhabited that place, and up to a recent past was still completely inhabited by them. Yes technically it's "baltic" area/region because of the Baltic sea and recent assimilation of livonians in the last century, foundation of state which includes those finnougric territories, and creates a misunderstanding in regards to the ethnic background..., BUT the people are not baltic people. That is not the kurgan type (associated with west baltic people)
Last edited by stemm99; 02-14-2019 at 07:45 AM.
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