"I'd sooner follow catholic tradition than follow no tradition"

[Kempenzoon]

A while ago on a local heathen bbs we had a discussion where someone brougth up an interesting quote

"I'd sooner follow catholic tradition than follow no tradition" - mind you, this guy is generally against christianity, especially catholicism.

The more I consider it, the more I actually agree with the quote once you place it into context. If I look at Flanders, what I see is a nation that's been christened for 1500 years. 1500 years is quite a long time, enough time to form/re-form traditions. Take for example local processions; pilgrimages and similar.

Those are traditions that have been a part of the local culture for maybe 1000 years, and that still bind the people of the region. Do you think for a heathen it is right to participate and even openly/strongly support these traditions even though they are openly catholic?

Or do you believe we need to turn our back on these traditions, and see what happens when Americanism, liberalism and Capitalism take over?

Personally, I believe it's important to acknowledge our full history. And that includes many centuries of being a strictly catholic people (in the case of Flanders). By turning our back on that part of our history, I believe we do a large disservice to our local traditions.

My grandparents for example are strict catholics, and have a huge collection of "Mother Mary of Flanders" statuettes. Mother Mary of Flanders is a depiction of Mother Mary holding baby Jesus in one arm, and a shield with the Flemish Lion on by her side. My grandfather, who used to work in construction, even built a chapel in the woods, dedicated to her, where every year there is a small celebration and procession there dedicated to Flanders and Mother Mary. In my town this is obviously a very recent tradition (on the large scale of things), but there are plenty of similar traditions which are much older.

When possible I gladly participate in these, and only refuse to take the holy bread.

Of course, you could claim there is one other option, which is to form a new tradition/re-form the tradition again into a pagan/heathen version. But my fear is in that case, at least with local traditions, that you begin to dabble in revisionist neo-pagan thinking and not really heathen thinking any longer. Obviously, in cases like Christmas where Yule is a fine alternative that's differently. But these more local traditions usually haven't been chronicled at all in pre-christian times, so there's nothing left to move back towards.

What is the general opinion here? Do you believe joining into a procession or similar is fitting behaviour for a heathen?

[Psychonaut]

What is the general opinion here? Do you believe joining into a procession or similar is fitting behaviour for a heathen?

I think that it's a fine line that we must walk. My family too has been almost entirely Catholic since the Dark Ages. What's important to take into account with Heathenry though is that we're dealing with a resurgent atavism. So, in hearkening back to the pre-Christian roots of festivals such as Yule, Easter, Midsummer and Harvest, we can maintain much of the cultural significance that these have carried over the last millennium while at the same time reclaiming the original spiritual significance. I do think, however, that there is a need to separate ourselves from the Christians when going about performing these festivities. While, at this stage of the Heathen resurgence, our communities are often small, I would say that a certain degree of autonomy and independence from the Christians is essential if we are to truly distinguish ourselves. This is especially important with our children. If we are to raise them as Heathens, it is imperative that their experiences of these festivals be from a Heathen perspective, not a Christian one. The association of Yule and Easter with Christ can be broken in one or two generations, but it necessitates a clean break with the Christian community.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Tradition promotes inhibition and habits.
Both stifle the wandering mind.

In my family for instance, we seem to drink Rooibos tea and nothing else.
We inhibit ourselves to try Twinings Vanilla tea.
In your case it is Mother Mary of Flandres.
Does it really acknowledge history or just religion.

Must we acknowledge the traditional Gay parade.Gayness is an age old tradition.

I hear what you are saying and value your tradition.
I have none,I do not want any,I adjust according to circumstances.

[Kempenzoon]

I hear what you are saying and value your tradition.
I have none,I do not want any,I adjust according to circumstances.

Constantly wandering with an open mind to try a bit of everything is exactly what this modern world is all about. It's the same argument given by druggies and queers. 'I just wanted to try it out once'

I believe that without traditions, your culture is lost and you become no better than communists or even gypsies.

In your case it is Mother Mary of Flandres.
Does it really acknowledge history or just religion.

It re-inforces the link between the catholics and the Flemish movement. Just like in Diksmuide there's a huge tower with the words "All for Flanders, Flanders for Christ" written on it. Personally I can't claim I feel in any way offended by that slogan, and I don't feel that allying myself with Flemish nationalists of the christian religion lessens me as a heathen.

Must we acknowledge the traditional Gay parade.Gayness is an age old tradition.

The Gay Parade is an invention of capitalist jews. To claim it's a tradition is to lessen the entire meaning of the word tradition.

What's important to take into account with Heathenry though is that we're dealing with a resurgent atavism. So, in hearkening back to the pre-Christian roots of festivals such as Yule, Easter, Midsummer and Harvest, we can maintain much of the cultural significance that these have carried over the last millennium while at the same time reclaiming the original spiritual significance.

I agree with you on these big festivals. Yule, Eostre and similar festivals are well documented in heathen sources though, so it's not hard to celebrate those properly. I do celebrate Yule instead of christmas for example.

But what about -local- history? Over here in Flanders we don't have some kind of Eddas-book which tells us how our heathen ancestors lived. And while I find the Eddas useful in general, to follow it unquestioningly would mean to abandon the Flemish culture and become Scandinavian in culture, which we aren't and which we shouldn't be (even though I really respect Scandinavia).

In my mind the options are ...

- Working with Flemish Catholics and keep the local culture entirely Flemish
- Working with non-Flemish heathens, and adopt foreign traditions to make up for the loss of local christian ones, pretty much the "Wicca way".
- Abandoning all of the past 1500 years of tradition, only keep the documented Flemish heathen traditions, thus making the local culture much poorer, but at least without foreign or christian elements
- Abandoning tradition altogether and devolve into chaos.

I'm not saying the second option is always bad. I can see the sense in that too, especially if we are to promote a pan-Germanic sense of belonging. But I find it hard to weigh what's worse. Foreign influence or christian influence.

[Psychonaut]

In my mind the options are ...

- Working with Flemish Catholics and keep the local culture entirely Flemish
- Working with non-Flemish heathens, and adopt foreign traditions to make up for the loss of local christian ones, pretty much the "Wicca way".
- Abandoning all of the past 1500 years of tradition, only keep the documented Flemish heathen traditions, thus making the local culture much poorer, but at least without foreign or christian elements
- Abandoning tradition altogether and devolve into chaos.

I'm not saying the second option is always bad. I can see the sense in that too, especially if we are to promote a pan-Germanic sense of belonging. But I find it hard to weigh what's worse. Foreign influence or christian influence.

I have to ask, how many religious holidays do you really need?

I'm looking at a book, Festivals of Western Europe by Dorothy Spicer, right now and it looks like the Dutch/Flemish traditions surrounding the major holidays are quite rich. The vloggelen and veldgang traditions surrounding Easter are assuredly Heathen holdovers. There looks to be other, smaller holidays as well with pre-Christian roots. The quintet of the Summer festivals, Kallemooi, Luilak, Pinkster and Pinksterbloem definitely appear to be holdovers from Heathen times.

[Kempenzoon]

I'm looking at a book, Festivals of Western Europe by Dorothy Spicer, right now and it looks like the Dutch/Flemish traditions surrounding the major holidays are quite rich. The vloggelen and veldgang traditions surrounding Easter are assuredly Heathen holdovers. There looks to be other, smaller holidays as well with pre-Christian roots. The quintet of the Summer festivals, Kallemooi, Luilak, Pinkster and Pinksterbloem definitely appear to be holdovers from Heathen times.

I'll have to find that book somewhere. Festivals like Pinkster for example, I cannot find that they have heathen roots anywhere.

A few others you mention (like vloggelen) I hadn't heard of yet, because it seems they're only celebrated in North Netherlands or near the border with Germany.

[Psychonaut]

I'll have to find that book somewhere. Festivals like Pinkster for example, I cannot find that they have heathen roots anywhere.

A few others you mention (like vloggelen) I hadn't heard of yet, because it seems they're only celebrated in North Netherlands or near the border with Germany.

Here's a quote from the aforementioned book about Pinkster (p. 127):

Many believe that the custom of the Pinkster Bride, or Flower, originated in pagan times and that the little girl who plays the part in the children's modern village drama personifies awakening spring or the returning sumer.

Also, here is a PDF of the book, available from Google. Enjoy!

[RoyBatty]

There are some things worth retaining from most religions and groups within those religious frameworks but I can't think of any which don't have their flaws, some obvious, other's less so.

I'm with Boerseun on this one. I also value and respect some of the traditions and the sense of identity it helps create for people to rally around but overall I can't in good faith support something unequivocably which I know to be flawed. I can support some of it, I can live with it on my doorstep or in my community but buying into it wholesale just isn't an option.

A lot of this stuff is about controlling people and manipulating them in order to make gains from it. Selling salvation and the hope of a better life and afterlife is one of the surest ways to gain the affections, unquestioning obedience (and $$$'s) of the people.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Constantly wandering with an open mind to try a bit of everything is exactly what this modern world is all about. It's the same argument given by druggies and queers. 'I just wanted to try it out once'

I believe that without traditions, your culture is lost and you become no better than communists or even gypsies.

Kemperzoon, what did I say????? Certainly not "try a bit of everything.
When you wander you look and not specifically taste.
Druggies and queers do not wander,they have tasted and found wanting. They are now in a state of inhibition and fixed habit and their tradition is a fag. up. which means that their culture is not lost..
To throw in a few words like commie and gypsy dates back to the 1950s McCarthyism. This Mackie was so traditionalized that to him every tree harbored a commie and every trash was a gypsy.

It re-inforces the link between the catholics and the Flemish movement. Just like in Diksmuide there's a huge tower with the words "All for Flanders, Flanders for Christ" written on it. Personally I can't claim I feel in any way offended by that slogan, and I don't feel that allying myself with Flemish nationalists of the christian religion lessens me as a heathen.

Then why should you be offended with the traditional Burqua or 'Allah Akbar'

The Gay Parade is an invention of capitalist jews. To claim it's a tradition is to lessen the entire meaning of the word tradition.

Oke, wat de Boer niet kent eet hij niet.

I agree with you on these big festivals. Yule, Eostre and similar festivals are well documented in heathen sources though, so it's not hard to celebrate those properly. I do celebrate Yule instead of christmas for example.

But what about -local- history? Over here in Flanders we don't have some kind of Eddas-book which tells us how our heathen ancestors lived. And while I find the Eddas useful in general, to follow it unquestioningly would mean to abandon the Flemish culture and become Scandinavian in culture, which we aren't and which we shouldn't be (even though I really respect Scandinavia).

In my mind the options are ...

- Working with Flemish Catholics and keep the local culture entirely Flemish
- Working with non-Flemish heathens, and adopt foreign traditions to make up for the loss of local christian ones, pretty much the "Wicca way".
- Abandoning all of the past 1500 years of tradition, only keep the documented Flemish heathen traditions, thus making the local culture much poorer, but at least without foreign or christian elements
- Abandoning tradition altogether and devolve into chaos.

I'm not saying the second option is always bad. I can see the sense in that too, especially if we are to promote a pan-Germanic sense of belonging. But I find it hard to weigh what's worse. Foreign influence or christian influence.

The point is that in modern societies tradition is flawed.
Protestant vs Roman Catholic
Democratic vs Conservatism
Pagan vs Chritianity
etc.
For example.
We Roman Catholics are eating Christs body and drink His blood (changing bread into His body and wine into His blood by a miracle)
Is there any difference between a Druid or Maya priest eating a victims heart out.
The Cath. priest says eat it, this is my body and the Druid says"Eat your heart out baby"

I on the other hand allow what ever is suitable for the believing person,with one condition:White skin-white skin-white skin as the only cultural tradition.
I am easy, I love the colorful Xmas mass and the Commie tradition :I have two bikes and give one to my neighbor...............................providing he pays for it

We can discuss this topic until we are blue in the face.
You love tradition and I do not.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Constantly wandering with an open mind to try a bit of everything is exactly what this modern world is all about. It's the same argument given by druggies and queers. 'I just wanted to try it out once'

Repression of 'druggies and queers' doesn't really work either. Most people will go with their natural impulses to not be queers, and with their rational mind to not be overly addicted to drugs. The 'queers' thing isn't really relevant much one way or the other as far as I can tell, and repression of 'druggies' just creates a lucrative smuggling trade for nonwhite criminal gangs.

The Gay Parade is an invention of capitalist jews.

Go to any 'gay parade' and you'll find 90%+ hate capitalism, believing it a 'tool of white patriarchal blah blah etc'