‘The euro is still a brilliant notion’

[RussiaPrussia]

Good points, but I don't feel that ethnicities should be divided purely by money motivations. As I've argued for England before, there are far easier ways to move the economy around a country:

1. Set minimum wage regionally or at state level - lower it in northern Germany and make it the lowest in eastern Germany. Here people can afford to live on less because wages are already lower, property prices are lower and shops and services already cater for lower incomes. By minimum wage it would make labour cheaper in these areas, meaning some businesses from southern Germany would move north.
2. Allow certain taxes to be set regionally - again, this would make these areas cheaper, and in the long term attract investment.
3. Improve transportation links such as roads, airports and railways to allow easy access to foreign markets. Germany's infrastructure is already fairly good at this anyway.

So essentially you could gain the main benefits of being a separate country without having to break up. Regions and states need more economical autonomy.

Previously I've argued that Wales, Northern Ireland and Northern England should be given powers of wages and taxes and set them lower than South East England. Obviously the people in these areas wouldn't like this, but that's because people don't tend to think in the long term.

i never said germany should break up but instead those peanuts what the north gets from the south both should have their own currencies. It would fix most of the problems and both could maybe reunite into a same currency in 20 years. Both germanys had their own currencies in first place until the dumb politicians gave the former gdr the west mark.

Look at china did hongkong or macau gave up their currencies? They do still exist and are free and traded currencies for the finance sectors and the borse while the reminbi is locked and downgraded to the dollar. Its quite beneficial as hongkong dollars which are not downgraded are invested in the mainland while the mainland downgrades to export more.

And both germanys do have different wages and even pensions, it changes nothing instead many eastern germans go to the west as live is there better. And obviously northern west germany isnt in that much in better shape because of the lost coal industry which is not beneficial anymore. The ruhr area always had to make transitions from coal to steal and now to service (which is completely fail) all what we have left now is a strong chemical industry but thats it. And lower saxon also hasnt much besides Volkswagen. These areas were completely neglected since the reunion and there is no money left as all goes to the east or greece.

But what you dont get is also the arrogance the south views on us for paying for the other states, like we are inferior if we would have our own currency we wouldnt need their peanuts.

[Albion]

Unlike socialist hellholes like the states and Britain, we dont have a universal minimum wage

We're not really socialist compared to your brothers to the north and new found friends to the west. You don't have a minimum wage? What do you have then? Hope in a decent wage?

[Albion]

There's really only one way for Eastern and Southern economies to feasibly compete with German economy is to set a union-wide minimum wage. Also adopt quality practices to match with ones employed in German law. I doubt Germany will want to give up its exclusivity in manufacturing though. It would also stop making the Euro so debilitating to poorer economies because living costs won't skyrocket to German levels while at the same time wages remain "low" compared to wages paid in Germany.

That said, I prefer to see my country remain on the Lev and not switch to the euro. We don't really need Frankfurt dictating how we should spend our money.

No! Because in this case jobs would just move to where the work force is best educated and best skilled - the north. That's a way to make Southern Europe even less competitive!

I dont think the German model can be emulated, certainly not by Eastern or Southern Europe. Its not the big companies, which make our economy special but the countless small to medium sized businesses, countless of them world leaders in their very own special product. Its not just quality but also superior infrastructure, short ways, cooperations between companies, custom made solutions etc. Such a system has to grow, you cant implement it forcefully.

An Europe-wide minimum wage would be a massacre for the other economies, destroying what little industry they got left.

Exactly.

A much better system for some countries would be along the lines of the Japanese Keiretsu.

A keiretsu (系列?, lit. system, series, grouping of enterprises, order of succession) is a set of companies with interlocking business relationships and shareholdings. It is a type of informal business group. The keiretsu maintained dominance over the Japanese economy for the greater half of the 20th century, but are beginning to lose their grip.[1]
The member companies own small portions of the shares in each other's companies, centered on a core bank; this system helps insulate each company from stock market fluctuations and takeover attempts, thus enabling long-term planning in innovative projects. It is a key element of the automotive industry in Japan.

The Virgin Group in the UK is quite similar to one and works rather well. Already we see large companies co-operating more and more, we need to encourage keiretsu to form.

[Albion]

i never said germany should break up but instead those peanuts what the north gets from the south both should have their own currencies. It would fix most of the problems and both could maybe reunite into a same currency in 20 years. Both germanys had their own currencies in first place until the dumb politicians gave the former gdr the west mark.

Relying on a North German Mark to plummet in value won't work if the north is subsidised. In don't think a separate currency is really necessary under my plan, but it would make the process faster by a few years.

Look at china did hongkong or macau gave up their currencies? They do still exist and are free and traded currencies for the finance sectors and the borse while the reminbi is locked and downgraded to the dollar. Its quite beneficial as hongkong dollars which are not downgraded are invested in the mainland while the mainland downgrades to export more.

I don't think they can be used as a model since they have barely anything else but finance as an economy. Northern Germany is different.

And both germanys do have different wages and even pensions, it changes nothing instead many eastern germans go to the west as live is there better. And obviously northern west germany isnt in that much in better shape because of the lost coal industry which is not beneficial anymore. The ruhr area always had to make transitions from coal to steal and now to service (which is completely fail) all what we have left now is a strong chemical industry but thats it. And lower saxon also hasnt much besides Volkswagen. These areas were completely neglected since the reunion and there is no money left as all goes to the east or greece.

In that case I don't see what else can be done. If the north adopted a separate currency then nothing is saying that it won't just become a lacklustre economy. So the problem seems to be that German companies don't want to head north and the north has quite a brain drain and few successful start up companies.

I don't know, I'll think about it and come back to this thread.

[Graus]

We're not really socialist compared to your brothers to the north and new found friends to the west. You don't have a minimum wage? What do you have then? Hope in a decent wage?

The comment was more of a reference to certain politicians, who act a little bit like the average tea party member when it comes to socialised health care and gun control.
I am not a fan of a minimum wage myself but I dont think it would smite our economy or turn us into a soviet style state.

There are different minimum wages for different jobs but only for a few selected branches.
We had traditionally strong unions and the state didnt mess with the negotiations. However the last reforms kinda diminished their power, its easier for companies to hire low paid contract workers nowadays. We also have so called "mini jobs" which means people on the dole can earn a little extra. Its dirt cheap for the companies to employ them and unfortunately that also lead to reduction of some regular jobs.
We have still a somewhat liveable level of welfare, so no one has to work and live like in a Dickens novel yet. And then you can sue if a wage is "immoral" low (sittenwidrig) but no one really knows what it means, let alone the limit.

[RussiaPrussia]

The comment was more of a reference to certain politicians, who act a little bit like the average tea party member when it comes to socialised health care and gun control.
I am not a fan of a minimum wage myself but I dont think it would smite our economy or turn us into a soviet style state.

There are different minimum wages for different jobs but only for a few selected branches.
We had traditionally strong unions and the state didnt mess with the negotiations. However the last reforms kinda diminished their power, its easier for companies to hire low paid contract workers nowadays. We also have so called "mini jobs" which means people on the dole can earn a little extra. Its dirt cheap for the companies to employ them and unfortunately that also lead to reduction of some regular jobs.
We have still a somewhat liveable level of welfare, so no one has to work and live like in a Dickens novel yet. And then you can sue if a wage is "immoral" low (sittenwidrig) but no one really knows what it means, let alone the limit.

no one can do nothing and get money here in germany, if you actually receive welfare money called ''hartz4'' for not having a job you either get a real work for 1 € where youre cleaning or something else. Or you get idiotic courses where youre prepared for finding a job and how to work and all kind of stuff which are funded by tax payers money also for 1€ wages.

http://translate.google.com/translat...33.php&act=url

They can also suspend your payment as long as they want if you dont go along with their rules or dont wanna find a job. Its all media lies that people can sit home and receive money. The opposite is true Hartz 4 is very damaging concept, it annoys people so much they will take any real work to get out of welfare. But since we dont have a minimum wages, people go into zeitarbeit which are very low paid jobs that much that they need to receive additional welfare to feed themselves and their families. These low paid jobs encourage companies to replace their higher paid regular jobs with lower paid ones.
Before hartz 4 no one wanted to cheap out him self so low for companies. Our politicians say its a jobs miracle but its a jobs bubble subsidized by the goverment for the companies. But in 20 years its gonna burst if the people need to receive pensions which they cant afford with such low wages.

[Žołnir]

Ppl was north germany realy so developed before WWII? Actually this is debatable at least as far as north-east germany goes. I read once it wasn't so great.

[Energia]

The South Euro needs some stronger players, not just smaller countries. It would work. But their troubling economies are a burden to the Eurozone and the Central and Northern countries atm. The Mafia clan of Draghi, Monti, Rajoy, Juncker, Barroso and Samaras who unite against Germany to throw our taxpayer money in a bottomless pit must be stopped.

Mafia?
you should bow and thank Mario Draghi, if it wasn't for him and ECB was ruled by some Merkelian agent we Europeans would be in a mess like 1929, all Europe would have been like Greece.
And you gotta also thank Italians, who are actually bailing out French + German banks that had gambled on Greece debt, how?via the ESM mechanism Italians are giving much more money than their banks invested in Greece debt.
Was it for me I wouldn't have given you a single buck.

You bet?you lost?it's not my business.

But they (Germans and then French) want to socialize financial risks throu all those kind of EFSS, ESM and stuff like that, that's pure plutocracy.

[Heart of Oak]

No it is not, I am glad we kept the Pound....

[denz]

Ironically Malta should be with the North club, we're doing good.

doing of what? for euro multiplier factor is 1 :mmmm: