about the "genocide" of Estonians

[Sarmatian]

....??? So first you came to my country without being invited, you killed my people, you deported my people, destroyed the country, the buildings the architecture, you forced your own language and culture on us, banning a lot that was Estonian, separated us from the rest of the world, forced us to live in poverty, build the ugliest apartments in the world, were against us being independent and somehow you think you did any good?

So you are saying that first you raped her, and then raped her again to make her feel better??


Sorry, but Russia has never been a great country, and before your kind came here, we were much better off. What you made from Central Asia and Eastern Europe was shit. All you did was destroy and destruct everyone and everything around you. Russians are the lowest of all people. Im glad your country is still ugly, poor, nothing but full of prostitutes and people hated by most.

Are you trying to say that today's Russians did all that?

All I wish for you is to realize that its quite stupid to blame anyone living today for what happened back then. All the troubles happened to all ex-USSR nations, including Russians. My people for example suffered much more than yours and I remember that but I do not hate Russians or Ukrainians or any other nation for that.

[Talvi]

Are you trying to say that today's Russians did all that?

All I wish for you is to realize that its quite stupid to blame anyone living today for what happened back then. All the troubles happened to all ex-USSR nations, including Russians. My people for example suffered much more than yours and I remember that but I do not hate Russians or Ukrainians or any other nation for that.

Yes, they are also not coming to you and telling you that it never happened and that there was no occupation, that it is what Estonians wanted. You do realize that people like this are still living in my country? Wanting me to call them my heroes?

And yes this happened to many countries, and in many of those countries Russians are hated as much, especially by those who are not Slavs. I dont know what your nation is so i cant comment on that any further.

30% or current Estonian population is Russian and half of those dont speak a word of Estonian and hate Estonia for being independent, just like Servuk.

Tell me why does it bother you that I speak badly of Russias deeds but its ok for Servuk to claim that Russia didnt do anything but help Estonia?

[member]

Is this chart really about ethnic Estonians? After independence many non-ethnic people left Baltic states.
Talvi, where there many mixed people? Perhaps some of those mixed people/and or those married non-ethnic people also left.

Compare to Lithuanian (citizens of Lithuania) situation:

http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaizdasopulation_of_Lithuania.PNG

EDIT: that smile shouldn't be there, wtf.

And now that we are talking about emigration, let's remember immigration during SU when looking at these charts.

[Talvi]

Is this chart really about ethnic Estonians? After independence many non-ethnic people left Baltic states.
Talvi, where there many mixed people? Perhaps some of those mixed people/and or those married non-ethnic people also left.

Compare to Lithuanian (citizens of Lithuania) situation:

http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaizdasopulation_of_Lithuania.PNG

EDIT: that smile shouldn't be there, wtf.

And now that we are talking emigration, let's remember immigration during SU when looking at these charts.

Its about people who consider themselves Estonian or during the USSR - who knows what statistics those exactly are, It might depend on their current aim.

There are mixed people, but not that many. There are also full-blooded Russians who consider themselves Estonian because they were born in Estonia and have an Estonian passport. Many mixed people also see themselves as just Russian.

But the population is quite small, and most families dont have more than 1 kid. So the average family has like 1.3 kids.


The Lithuanian chart seems to be similar - population rising in the end of 80 and starting to decrease in the 90s.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, they are also not coming to you and telling you that it never happened and that there was no occupation, that it is what Estonians wanted. You do realize that people like this are still living in my country? Wanting me to call them my heroes?

Well claim that its never happened is retarded and I'd suggest you to stop wasting your time and energy on mentally handicapped people who giving out such claims. But I also want to suggest you to stop overreacting on the issue which you and other Estonians do all the time. I regularly see Estonians trying to portray Russians as uncultured and violent barbarians. Get over it and live your life without hate.

And yes this happened to many countries, and in many of those countries Russians are hated as much, especially by those who are not Slavs. I dont know what your nation is so i cant comment on that any further.

My father is Don cossack and my mother is Kuban cossack and both sides of my family supposed to be exterminated by 1930. Many families weren't as lucky as my and died horribly in hands of Hungarian and Chinese mercenaries and Jewish commissars.

30% or current Estonian population is Russian and half of those dont speak a word of Estonian and hate Estonia for being independent, just like Servuk.

Are you sure its a one-way problem? I'm not aware of the exact situation but I think its unavoidable transition period. The less drama you'll create around it the sooner it will settle down.

Tell me why does it bother you that I speak badly of Russias deeds but its ok for Servuk to claim that Russia didnt do anything but help Estonia?

Because it weren't Russia's deeds. It was USSR. If it would've been established and governed by ethnic Russians only your badmouthing of Russians would've had at least some ground. But its not.

For example do you know what military units served as a backbone of Red Army?

[Talvi]

Are you sure its a one-way problem? I'm not aware of the exact situation but I think its unavoidable transition period. The less drama you'll create around it the sooner it will settle down.



Because it weren't Russia's deeds. It was USSR. If it would've been established and governed by ethnic Russians only your badmouthing of Russians would've had at least some ground. But its not.

For example do you know what military units served as a backbone of Red Army?

What do you mean by a one-way problem? The official language of Estonia is Estonian, spoken officially nowhere else in the world and should be the ONLY official language of Estonia. Instead of learning it Russians are trying to send letters to UN and whatnot that we are discriminating against their human rights. (no im not making that up) I have been physically assaulted in Estonia, for telling a bus driver to speak to me in Estonian. I dont think situations like these are OK. When a large per centage of population refuses to speak the official language because of their soviet mentality how exactly do you think it will just randomly settle down?

Yes, there were many people doing crappy things in the soviet union, but Ive only met Russians who are still driven by the soviet ideas.Why? Because of the culture and language that they feel it is theirs. And I can feel that in my every day life! Being yelled at in my country for not speaking Russian. And yes it does happen and its not something that just goes away when I close my eyes.

The problem isnt what they did, its how they are about it now, its about the situation now.

Maybe because you seem to be of mixed heritage of some degree you dont realize what it is to be just one (im sorry ive never really heard of either one but they seem to be of different areas). And how much culture or language is left of what your mother and father had? You maybe fine with what happened, but I am not.

[Sarmatian]

What do you mean by a one-way problem? The official language of Estonia is Estonian, spoken officially nowhere else in the world and should be the ONLY official language of Estonia. Instead of learning it Russians are trying to send letters to UN and whatnot that we are discriminating against their human rights. (no im not making that up) I have been physically assaulted in Estonia, for telling a bus driver to speak to me in Estonian. I dont think situations like these are OK. When a large per centage of population refuses to speak the official language because of their soviet mentality how exactly do you think it will just randomly settle down?

Yes, there were many people doing crappy things in the soviet union, but Ive only met Russians who are still driven by the soviet ideas.Why? Because of the culture and language that they feel it is theirs. And I can feel that in my every day life! Being yelled at in my country for not speaking Russian. And yes it does happen and its not something that just goes away when I close my eyes.

The problem isnt what they did, its how they are about it now, its about the situation now.

Maybe because you seem to be of mixed heritage of some degree you dont realize what it is to be just one (im sorry ive never really heard of either one but they seem to be of different areas). And how much culture or language is left of what your mother and father had? You maybe fine with what happened, but I am not.

It is not Russians to blame for the fact that Stalin was a devoted Marxist and sincerely believed that all people should put their ethnic differences aside (or forced to do so if they happen to disagree) and unite in one big friendly community. But your folks are consistently attacking Russians for that and in fact are quite aggressive in it. An guess what? Every action has a reaction and you got aggressive response back.

Why don't you guys blame your neighbors Latvians for anything? They played a huge role in Bolshevik's success. It were famous Latvian Riflemen who formed a backbone of Red Army as they served as example for its military units.

The problem with Russian language in Estonia is nothing but artificially supported political babble.

I can give you an example of solution. Cyprus used to be a British colony and its population was pretty much forced to speak English. But once Brits left the independent Cyprus accepted English as second official language despite the fact that there is no British population at all. People are free to choose which language they speak and some don't speak English at all while some don't speak Greek.

Now 30% of Estonian population are Russians. It is a significant group of people that speaks their own language. Any sane government in such situation will just make their language a second official. Forcing people to chose one over another will create tensions. Not because they don't like the language but because they are forced. Its obvious recipe for disaster.

By denying people the right to speak their own language you automatically limiting their abilities to function in your society and integrate into it. The only explanation for it I can see is that your folks want to force Russians out of Estonia. Is that correct? But then what makes you better than Stalin who forced people here and there?

[Talvi]

It is not Russians to blame for the fact that Stalin was a devoted Marxist and sincerely believed that all people should put their ethnic differences aside (or forced to do so if they happen to disagree) and unite in one big friendly community. But your folks are consistently attacking Russians for that and in fact are quite aggressive in it. An guess what? Every action has a reaction and you got aggressive response back.

Why don't you guys blame your neighbors Latvians for anything? They played a huge role in Bolshevik's success. It were famous Latvian Riflemen who formed a backbone of Red Army as they served as example for its military units.

The problem with Russian language in Estonia is nothing but artificially supported political babble.

I can give you an example of solution. Cyprus used to be a British colony and its population was pretty much forced to speak English. But once Brits left the independent Cyprus accepted English as second official language despite the fact that there is no British population at all. People are free to choose which language they speak and some don't speak English at all while some don't speak Greek.

Now 30% of Estonian population are Russians. It is a significant group of people that speaks their own language. Any sane government in such situation will just make their language a second official. Forcing people to chose one over another will create tensions. Not because they don't like the language but because they are forced. Its obvious recipe for disaster.

By denying people the right to speak their own language you automatically limiting their abilities to function in your society and integrate into it. The only explanation for it I can see is that your folks want to force Russians out of Estonia. Is that correct? But then what makes you better than Stalin who forced people here and there?

Oh hell no!!!!!

[Sarmatian]

Oh hell no!!!!!

Care to explain why not?

[Talvi]

Care to explain why not?

This would mean the death of Estonian because no Russian would actually choose Estonian over Russian.

Here is the sad truth - Estonian is the official language, yet to get a job in the public sphere (working in the store etc) you are required to know Russian, at least you are expected - so many times Russians are chosen over Estonian even if their Estonian is very poor. There are areas in Estonia where nobody understands Estonian! Living on someones elses land in someone elses history and culture requires respect that the Russians lack. Knowing the official language of the country you live in isnt something you whether do or dont because you like it or not, it is a basic thing and a must!!!

With the little amount of Estonians that are left in this world, the little that we have left should be saved no matter what. Most of our mythology, customs, traditions, even nation foods has been lost/destroyed. We still have our language (even though a huge percentage of the vocabulary comes from german and swedish) and that must be protected.


I once went to see a movie about Estonian re-independence and an old man was sitting near me, watching the movie and crying.. how can I just let all that go?