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Thread: Dialects of Turkish language

  1. #31
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    So Kyrgyz and Turkish being 2 different languages is just my opinion? I expected that you would say something like that


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    Language is not politics .
    You need to prove your claims with strong scientific (linguistic ) evidences .
    It 's not like "Let's throw a troll claim and sit back enjoy while they try to prove contrary "

    A few vocal change won't make an independent language ..

    For example in Turkey Turkish of Oguz Dialect there are two plural suffix -lar -ler

    In Kırgız of Kıpçak Dialect ,it becomes 16
    -lar -ler -lor -lör -nar -ner -nor -nör -tar -ter -tor -tör -dar -der -dor -dör
    It takes a person who speaks an Oguz dialect, a few weeks to understand Kırgız because of certain consonant and vocal changes



    Kırgızca Altay dilleri'nin Türk Lehçeleri'ne bağlı Kıpçak grubuna ait bir lehçedir. Kazak Türkçesi ile yakın özellikler gösteren dil yaklaşık 4 milyon kişi tarafından konuşulmakta olup, Kırgızistan'ın resmi dilidir.

    Özellikleri: sözcük başı y'ler c'ye dönüşmüştür; yol>col yıldız>cıldız...,
    Eklerde de değişme olur, yuvarlak ünlüler kendinden sonraki ünlüleri etkiler: bölmö:bölme, köpölöklördön (kelebeklerden),
    bazı b ile başlayan kelimeler m olabilir:boyun>moyun, bun (sıkıntı)>muŋ (ŋ:nazal n, ng sesi verir.)

    Kırgızca'da şimdi zaman çeşitliliği de görülür. -a / -e, -y ekiyle kurulan şimdiki zamandır. (Cönököy uçur çak \ Basit şimdiki zaman)
    kaç-a-mın "kaçıyorum"
    kaç-a-sın "kaçıyorsun"
    kaç-a-sız "kaçıyursın"
    al kaç-a-t "kaçıyor"
    kaç-a-bız "kaçıyoruz"
    kaç-a-sınar "kaçıyorsunuz"
    kaç-a-sızdır "kaçıyorsunuz"
    alar kaç-a-t "kaçıyorlar"
    Tataal uçar çak (Birleşik şimdiki zaman) Yat-, yür-, tur-, otur- fiilleriyle kurulan şimdiki zamana Kırgız Türkçesi'nde birleşik şimdiki zaman denir.
    Men işte-p cür-ö-m "Ben çalışıyorum"

    Kırgız Türkçesinde sekiz ünlü vardır. Bu ünlüler Türkiye Türkçesindeki ünlülerle aynıdır: “a, e, ı, i, o, ö, u, ü”.

    “e” sesi kelime başında “Э э” işaretiyle; kelime içinde ise “e” işaretiyle gösterilir. Bu ünlülerin dışında Kırgız Türkçesinde bir de y ünsüzü ile birlikte kullanılan ünlüler vardır: Ё ё = yo.

    Kırgız Türkçesinin tipik özelliği uzun ünlüler, diftong bulundurmasıdır. Yukarıdaki sekiz ünlüye ek olarak, altı da uzun ünlü vardır: aa, ee, oo, öö, uu, üü.

    Kırgız Türkçesinde yirmi ünsüz vardır: “b, c, ç, d, f, g, x, k, l, m, n, ñ, p, r, s, ş, t, v, y, z”
    Bugünkü Kırgız alfabesinde, ince ünlülerle kullanılan g ile kalın ünlülerle kullanılan ğ, aynı harfle gösterilir. Ancak Kırgız Türkçesindeki g sesi Türkiye Türkçesindekinden daha belirgin ve telâffuz yeri gırtlağa yakındır. Kırgız Türkçesinde, Türkiye Türkçesinden farklı olarak hırıltılı gırtlak sesi x ve damak sesi ñ vardır. Türkiye Türkçesindeki gırtlak sesi h ise Kırgız Türkçesinde yoktur.

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    Kam Ata - Tengri Teg -TAMU

    There is no hierarchy in nature, only harmony. No chosen people, no chosen race, no soul slavery. My true beloved ones are Black Earth and Eternal Blue Sky

  3. #33
    Sibiriin Huiten Salhi Siberian Cold Breeze's Avatar
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    AHAHAAA Kacan çıkasın ?

    [YOUTUBE]-GGUSjBIP4g[/YOUTUBE]

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siberian Cold Breeze View Post
    Language is not politics .
    You need to prove your claims with strong scientific (linguistic ) evidences .
    It 's not like "Let's throw a troll claim and sit back enjoy while they try to prove contrary "
    So, saying that Kyrgyz and Turkish are 2 clearly distinct Turkic languages is a "troll claim"? Oh, please ...

    Could you explain then why there are countless academic publications and websites dealing explicitely with Turkic languages and not just dialects of one pan-Turkish language?

    A few examples out of many:

    http://www.amazon.com/Turkic-Languag.../dp/0415412617

    http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Tur.../dp/0415141982

    http://books.google.cz/books/about/T...MC&redir_esc=y

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...rkic-languages

    http://www.umich.edu/~turkish/langres_turkic.html

    http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/

    Perhaps their authors are just trolling too?

    A few vocal change won't make an independent language ..

    For example in Turkey Turkish of Oguz Dialect there are two plural suffix -lar -ler

    In Kırgız of Kıpçak Dialect ,it becomes 16
    -lar -ler -lor -lör -nar -ner -nor -nör -tar -ter -tor -tör -dar -der -dor -dör
    It takes a person who speaks an Oguz dialect, a few weeks to understand Kırgız because of certain consonant and vocal changes

    So, you are saying that all what makes Kyrgyz and Turkish different are just a few "vocal changes"?

    First, these 2 languages belong to 2 clearly distinct sub-groups inside of the Turkic family, Kypchak and Oghuz, which diverged at least 1500 years ago, if not more:





    After their separation, these languages have been hardly in any contact. Western Oghuz came into contact with Persian, Arabic, Armenian, Greek and other languages and Kyrgyz was influenced by Mongolian, Chaghataic and in a lesser degree by Arabic, Persian and Russian. In other words, they have built their vocabulary completely independently, with the only common thing being the Arabo-Persian lexical layer and ancient Turkic basic vocabulary

    But even in the most basic vocabulary, there are several differences:







    As for your grammar examples, they show that Turkic languages mostly share a similar structure, but suffixes used to express the same grammatical cathegory might be quite different, which doesn't exactly help to enhance any mutual intelligibility.

    Anyway, the distinction between a language and dialect might be unclear, but that's hardly the case for languages which have been evolving separately for some 1500 years. One could argue that languages inside of a specific subgroup, like for example Western Oghuz or Uzbek/Uyghur are in fact dialects, because of their great similarity and intelligibility, but even that would be questionable, given that they have noticeably different standards.

    BTW, what I am saying doesn't aply only to Turkic languages. Russian and Czech are not dialects of the same language, just because of their common Slavic roots and considerable lexical and grammatical similarities.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayazid View Post


    Tişle, it, eşik, tap, yaqşı, özge, qayt, ut are commonly used in Azerbaijani Turkish. These are actually non-Oghuz? Thats new to me.
    Last edited by Yalquzaq; 11-16-2012 at 05:20 PM.

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    It's on the page 119-20 of the Routledge Turkic languages book. Perhaps they are results of contacts between Oghuz and non-Oghuz languages or just mistakes on the part of the author.

    BTW, what do you think? Are Turkic languages just dialects which can be understood after "adjusting ear" or separate languages?
    Last edited by Ayazid; 11-16-2012 at 05:15 PM.

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    Well, different branches are different languagues in my opinion. Maybe one can say that Anatolian Turkish and Azerbaijani Turkish are different dialects of same language, but I honestly do not think that a Oghuz dialect can be considered as same as lets say Qazaq. But it still would be much closer to each other than lets say Dutch and English that are two Germanic languagues, so that example is also not correct.
    Last edited by Yalquzaq; 11-16-2012 at 04:48 PM.

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    Yes, I think that the position of English among Germanic languages is more akin to the position of Yakut within the Turkic family. It's a bit too isolated, even if it is still unmistakeably Germanic. I think that the relation between Turkish and, e.g., Kyrgyz is more like the one between Czech and Russian, but I would still need to learn the language in order to understand it really well and not just grasp the gist of what is being said.

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    Some of your links lead to published books and others prove me right because I already told these are main group of dialects of Turkic language family .
    Verbal borrowings do not make a seperate language.

    Oguz and Non Oguz verbal differences are not that sharp: some of words you posted as an example exist in our speech too,except a few
    ..and esik =/=kapı are not same things

    The term dialect (from the ancient Greek word Διάλεκτος diálektos, "discourse", from διά diá, "through" + λέγω legō, "I speak") is used in two distinct ways, even by linguists
    There is no universally accepted criterion for distinguishing a language from a dialect. A number of rough measures exist, sometimes leading to contradictory results. Some linguists do not differentiate between languages and dialects, i.e. languages are dialects and vice versa.

    The distinction is therefore subjective and depends on the user's frame of reference. Note also that the terms are not always treated as mutually exclusive.
    The status of language is not solely determined by linguistic criteria, but it is also the result of a historical and political development.

    Romansh came to be a written language, and therefore it is recognized as a language, even though it is very close to the Lombardic alpine dialects.

    An opposite example is the case of Chinese, whose variations such as Mandarin and Cantonese are often called dialects and not languages, despite their mutual unintelligibility, because the word for them in Mandarin, 方言 fāngyán, was mistranslated as "dialect" because it meant "regional speech"

    So your claims again ,once more lead to a political agenda = waste of time

    If you need academic help you can ask:

    Fatih Üniversity :Modern Turkic Dialects and Literatures ( Thesis ) ( Türkçe )
    http://sbe.fatih.edu.tr/?program,130&
    language=EN


    Ankara Üniversitesi Dil ve Tarih - Coğrafya Fakültesi
    Çağdaş Türk Lehçeleri ve Edebiyatları bölümü Ühttp://turklehceleri.humanity.ankara.edu.tr/

    ÇUKUROVA ÜNİVERSİTESİ TÜRKOLOJİ ARAŞTIRMALARI MERKEZİ
    ÇAĞDAŞ TÜRK LEHÇELERİ ARAŞTIRMALARI
    http://turkoloji.cu.edu.tr/CAGDAS%20...rk_leh_ana.php
    Last edited by Siberian Cold Breeze; 11-16-2012 at 05:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siberian Cold Breeze View Post
    Some of your links lead to published books and others prove me right because I already told main these are main group of dialects of Turkic language .
    Verbal borrowings do not make a seperate language.

    Oguz and Non Oguz verbal differences are not that sharp: some of words you posted as an example exist in our speech too,except a few
    ..and esik =/=kapı are not same things
    Which links from those which I posted prove you right? All of them clearly refer to Turkic languages and Turkic language family, not Turkish dialects or dialects of Turkish language. As you can see, all of them deal with Turkic languages as distinct and meticulously describe their differences.

    Turkic languages are not considered to be dialects of one language anymore than Slavic and Germanic languages are seen as dialects of one Slavic and Germanic one. They are no special case and lexical borrowings definitely do contribute to linguistic variations. There is obviously a great similarity between the basic vocabulary of most Turkic languages, but that's not something exclusive for them. Let's have a look on the most common words in Germanic languages:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...anic_languages

    Most of them are very similar. Does that mean that, e.g., Swedes and Germans can understand each other well after figuring out a few phonetic differences? No, because the rest of their lexical stock is very different, which makes sense for languages which have been evolving separately for some 1500 years (just like Turkish and Kyrgyz).

    So your claims again ,once more leads to a political agenda = waste of time. if you need academic help you can ask:
    So I have a political agenda? And which one exactly? Anti-Turkism? I suppose that the same thing goes for the authors of all those publications and websites which I posted above.

    The distinction between dialects and languages might be arbitrary and hard to determine (Is Bavarian a German dialect or a separate language?), but it's not useless at all. Kyrgyz and Turkish are 2 largely unintelligible language varieties with established literary standards, which have been separated for hundreds of years, both geographically and culturally. Referring to them as mere dialects which are mutually intelligible after a short adaptation is a serious underestimation of their differences and I suspect that it's precisely you and those Turks who refer to them this way, who has a clear political-ideological agenda.

    It's quite telling that most foreign linguists have apparently no problem in classificating Turkic languages as distinct, but some Turkish authors and institutions think otherwise and label them as "dialects". It probably doesn't have any relation to Turkish ethnic nationalism (integrated into the Republican Kemalist ideology) with its pan-Turkic undertones and sentiments.

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