How to Speak Proto-Indo-European

[Albion]

After all this talking about Indo-European, he wonders if the name of the site Dnghu is an acronym? For Zeus' sake, it is obviously related to the Indo-European word dnghwa "language", from which both tongue and lingua derive.

Who does? I'm discussing whether 'ric' / 'reich' is connected to those others since it is used to be applied to the realm of a monarch.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Not exaclty, King is 'cyning' in Old English. 'ric' is a related term though, it's the king's domain and appears similar to those words:



I think it's ultimately derived from Celtic. I read something about that somewhere, I'll have to look it up.

Yeah that's what I thought too, in that Germanic doesn't really preserve a cognate from PIE 'rek'. Ancient Celtic tribes surely had a linguistic influence on Germanic. There are a few articles here and there on that which I am vaguely aware of. Many cite the Jastorf culture as the time Celtic would have influenced Germanic.

But with IE linguistic relations there are many instances of this where the words derived from the proto-form are lost or go through radical semantic shifts as the case with 'wheel'.

[Comte Arnau]

Who does? I'm discussing whether 'ric' / 'reich' is connected to those others since it is used to be applied to the realm of a monarch.

The guy in the original video, at the end.

[Albion]

For German 'reich' (info on Old English 'ric' / 'rice' is hard to find because we don't really use that word any more).

The German noun Reich is derived from Old High German rīhhi, which together with its cognates in Old English rice Old Norse rîki and Gothic reiki is from a Common Germanic *rīkijan. The English noun is extinct, but persists in composition, in bishop-ric. The German adjective reich, on the other hand, has an exact cognate in English rich. Both the noun (*rīkijan) and the adjective (*rīkijaz) are derivations based on a Common Germanic *rīks "ruler, king", reflected in Gothic as reiks, glossing ἄρχων "leader, ruler, chieftain".

It is probable that the Germanic word was not inherited from pre-Proto-Germanic, but rather loaned from Celtic (i.e. Gaulish rīx) at an early time.

The word has many cognates outside of Germanic and Celtic, notably Latin rex and Sanskrit raja "king". It is ultimately from a Proto-Indo-European root *reg-, meaning "to straighten out" or "rule".

So its meaning has changed a bit, but is still related to the original in a loose way (the area a king rules over).

[Smaug]

But does that mean 'king' precisely? I thought most Germanic languages used derivatives from Proto-Germanic 'kuninguz' which is cognate to 'clan' and essentially meant clan leader among the early Germanic tribes. I've heard of 'reich' too and how that preserved PIE for 'king' in Germanic but some linguists claim it a borrowing from Latin 'rex' I believe.

About the King/König word, some say it was originally 'kuningas', and that it was borrowed from Finno-Ugric languages. This statement is used by supporters if the Finno-Atlantic Substratum Hypothesis, that defends the idea that the Proto-Germanic was a creole IE language with Uralic influences.

About 'ric', yes, in Olde Ænglisc it meaned "king". Variations include 'rice' and 'rick'. This word is surely of Indo-European origin and it was pronounced not as the German "Reich", but rather as the Gaulish "Rix", but instead of a "x" sound, it had a "k" sound.

[Comte Arnau]

The fact that maharaja is so equivalent to magnus rex is certainly fascinating.

[Albion]

About the King/König word, some say it was originally 'kuningas', and that it was borrowed from Finno-Ugric languages. This statement is used by supporters if the Finno-Atlantic Substratum Hypothesis, that defends the idea that the Proto-Germanic was a creole IE language with Uralic influences.

About 'ric', yes, in Olde Ænglisc it meaned "king". Variations include 'rice' and 'rick'. This word is surely of Indo-European origin and it was pronounced not as the German "Reich", but rather as the Gaulish "Rix", but instead of a "x" sound, it had a "k" sound.

Finnic perhaps extended into North Germany, but I can't yet imagine it along the Atlantic coast (Britain, France or Iberia).

Thanks for the info on 'ric' anyway, I thought I'd seen it used to refer to a king somewhere. I'm wondering whether some Germanic king names such as 'Alaric' have anything to do with it as well.

[Vesuvian Sky]

About the King/König word, some say it was originally 'kuningas', and that it was borrowed from Finno-Ugric languages. This statement is used by supporters if the Finno-Atlantic Substratum Hypothesis, that defends the idea that the Proto-Germanic was a creole IE language with Uralic influences.

About 'ric', yes, in Olde Ænglisc it meaned "king". Variations include 'rice' and 'rick'. This word is surely of Indo-European origin and it was pronounced not as the German "Reich", but rather as the Gaulish "Rix", but instead of a "x" sound, it had a "k" sound.

Yes, and that's precisely what got me into IE studies, the alleged Germanic substrate. Truthfully, the Uralic substrate theory is rather weak. It rested on the concept of 'language of geminates' which in and of itself was a vague concept (see Peter Shriver's works on this). Also, quite a few Uralic scholars have come out and said Finno-Ugric's arrival in Europe was a much more recent occurrence and challenge its position as a Mesolithic survivor language in Europe.

I did my own survey on the Germanic substrate a long time ago and its only a few words that have a non-Germanic origin. Not very many and even w/ those words its questionable if they have Germanic cognates or not or are simply spontaneous innovation w/in Proto-Germanic.

[Smaug]

Finnic perhaps extended into North Germany, but I can't yet imagine it along the Atlantic coast (Britain, France or Iberia).

Thanks for the info on 'ric' anyway, I thought I'd seen it used to refer to a king somewhere. I'm wondering whether some Germanic king names such as 'Alaric' have anything to do with it as well.

The 'kuningas' borrowing would have happened while Germanic was still in an early stage. The theory is: Indo-European arrive in Northern Europe in the region that today corresponds to Northern Germany and Southern Scandinavia, and meet the pre-IE peoples of Uralic origin. Then, they start influencing each other giving rise to the Proto-Germanic.

See the Proto-Germanic area:



The 'ric' word is probably of Celto-Italic inspiration, and probably was adopted by Anglo-Saxon much later, when Germanics have already had contact with the native Celtic peoples of Britain. 'Ric' is used to refer to kings, while 'rīce' means "kindgom".

[Albion]

I did my own survey on the Germanic substrate a long time ago and its only a few words that have a non-Germanic origin. Not very many and even w/ those words its questionable if they have Germanic cognates or not or are simply spontaneous innovation w/in Proto-Germanic.

Why would they invent so many words though? Why not just use the standard IE derived ones like the other languages?
'Sea' / 'Zee' is one isn't it? But some Germanic languages preserve the IE word and use it for lakes instead - compare English 'Mere' (archaic, but still used for 'Lake') and Dutch 'meer' to Welsh 'môr' (sea).

It's quite fascinating comparing languages and seeing how they've developed though. Maybe I'll start studying it.