NW Russians are not Finnic

[Hors]

The article says that Russians are genetically homogenous (Y-chromosome and mtDNA) on the whole, while NW Russians are positively NOT Finnic or Baltic by mtDNA, being a distinct Slavic group presumably of Baltic Slavic origin.

http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJG...cle/view/15/11

Анализ изменчивости митохондриальной ДНК (мтДНК) и Y-хромосомы в популяциях русского населения европейской части России показал, что русские характеризуются низким уровнем генетической дифференциации как по материнским линиям мтДНК, так и по отцовским линиям Y-хромосомы. Более того, генетические различия между русскими популяциями вообще исчезают, если их сгруппировать в соответствии с диалектным членением русского языка или по данным антропологии. Между тем, анализ изменчивости мтДНК в популяциях северной части Европы показал, что некоторые русские популяции Северо-Западного региона России (Псков и Великий Новгород) и поляки Северо-Восточной Польши (Сувалки) достоверно отличаются от соседних популяций славянского (русские и поляки), балтского (литовцы) и угро-финского (эстонцы, карелы, финны) происхождения. Полученные генетические данные позволяют рассматривать псковско-новгородское русское население в качестве отдельной славянской группировки в составе современных восточных славян.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's all very nice- but too bad that we can't read it

[Hors]

I'm not sure, but perhaps there is an English version, I just was not able to find it now.

Use an on-line translator.

[The Lawspeaker]

Any programs you can recommend ? As I usually have a very hard time (and never succeeded) in finding a decent translator.

[Hors]

Judge for yourself

http://www.translate.ru/

The variability analysis митохондриальной DNA (мтДНК) and Y-chromosomes in populations of Russian population of the European part of Russia has shown that Russian are characterised by low level of genetic differentiation both on parent lines мтДНК, and on fatherly lines of a Y-chromosome. Moreover, genetic distinctions between Russian populations in general disappear, if them to group according to dialect partitioning of Russian or according to anthropology. Meanwhile, the variability analysis мтДНК in populations of northern part of Europe has shown that some Russian populations of Northwest region of Russia (Pskov and Great Novgorod) and Poles of Northeast Poland (Сувалки) authentically differ from the next populations slavic (Russian and Poles), балтского (Lithuanians) and Finno-Ugrian (Estonians, Karelians, Finns) origins. The obtained genetic data allows to consider the pskovsko-Novgorod Russian population as separate slavic grouping as a part of modern east Slavs.

[The Lawspeaker]

Unfortunately. The translation stutters a bit and not everything is translated. But what I read is interesting enough.
The source seems to be genuine and the publication recent. No Soviet studies this time. But the question I am asking myself is this one: what happened to the Finnic and Baltic population ?

[Creeping Death]

The article says that Russians are genetically homogenous (Y-chromosome and mtDNA) on the whole, while NW Russians are positively NOT Finnic or Baltic by mtDNA, being a distinct Slavic group presumably of Baltic Slavic origin.

The Russians are becoming very proactive in this arena, I notice the Russians are attempting to distance themselves from any Scandinavian DNA by claiming the ancient Rus were Slavic.

[Hors]

Unfortunately. The translation stutters a bit and not everything is translated.

The program does not have the genetics vocabulary. Works fine with general texts thou.

But what I read is interesting enough.
The source seems to be genuine and the publication recent. No Soviet studies this time. But the question I am asking myself is this one: what happened to the Finnic and Baltic population ?

Partially assimilated, partially eliminated, partially expelled.

Not that they were numerous. Finnics, being primitive hunters and gatherers needed a lot of space to survive, while advanced hornicultural Slavs were able to reproduce in much greater numbers on the same territory, or rather on the territory available for agriculture, while scarce bands of Finnics were limited to swamps.

[Äike]

Source: Estonian genome project foundation This is one of the most advanced genome research centers in Europe

TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

TÜ Eesti Geenivaramu direktor professor Andres Metspalu koos kaastöötajatega otsib seoseid geenide, keskkonnafaktorite, elustiili ja inimeste tervisliku seisundi vahel, mis annavad võimaluse haigusi ennetada ja paremini elada. Tulevikus. Täna on geenikaardid veel nii keerulised, et neid ei suuda lugeda arst ega apteeker.

Milline siis on see meie geeneetiline struktuur ja kas me erineme ka maakonniti?

Meil on väga ühtlane kogukond. Jõgevamaa kohta eraldi ei ole näiteks mitte midagi ütelda, see on täiesti Eesti keskmine maakond, sealsed geenidoonorid on tüüpilised eestlased. Eesti lõikes erinevad teineteisest kõige rohkem saarlased ja setud, nende vahe on juba märgatav, kui uurides kasutada meetodit, millega saab minna päris detailseks, vaadelda nagu mikroskoobi all.

Setumaa ja Põlva piirkond moodustavad väikese omaette rahvakillu eestlaste sees, nad on ülejäänud Eestist erinevad oma geenikaardi poolest, aga ainult õige vähe. Väliseid tunnuseid ei ole muidugi näha, aga me analüüsime 370 000 geenimarkerit, need enamasti ei mõjuta otseselt midagi, mis silmaga näha oleks, aga ta näitab seda, kuidas ajaloo jooksul mingi rahvakild on isekeskis kauem koos elanud ja teistest eraldi.

Mandrimehel on kindlam võtta saare naine, siis on väiksem tõenäosus, et lapsele satuks mingi haruldane haigus. Kuid eestlaste enda ränne on viinud meid selleni, et ega me enam suurt ei suuda eristada eestlasi omavahel. Saarlastel küll on ka natukene rootsi mõju, mitmed geenimutatsioonid, mis on Skånes (Lõuna Rootsis), on ka Saaremaal esindatud.

Olete vaadelnud ka meie naaberrahvaste geeniandmeid, mis sealt välja tuleb?

Eestis oleme just äsja koostatud esimesed 1000 geenikaarti ja neid nüüd teistega võrrelnud. Oleme uurinud nii venelasi, sakslasi, leedulasi, tÅ¡ehhe kui ka lätlasi. Loodame saada lähiajal ka soome ja rootsi andmed. Paneme kokku kõik ümber Balti mere olevad rahvad, siis näeme, kui sarnased või erinevad me oleme.

Siin on kaart, kus on baierisakslased, aga kaks eestlast on sattunud hulka. Ilmselt on tegemist baltisakslastega, kes on nii äraeestistunud, et on pannud ennast kirja eestlastena, kuid geenianalüüs on nii tundlik, et registreerib nad kaardile ikka sakslastena.

Venemaa kaart aga näitab, et vähemalt Loode-Venemaal on palju inimesi , kes räägivad vene keelt, kuid geneetiliselt on väga sarnased soomeugrilastega.

Translation of bold text: The Russian map shows that in North Western Russia, there are lots of people who speak Russian, but genetically they are very similar to Finno-Ugrics.

If you don't believe me, then use a translator

[EWtt]

This study disagrees: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2253976

One of these antedates the linguistic split between West and East Slavonic-speaking people and is common for the two groups; the other is genetically highlighted by the pre-eminence of haplogroup (hg) N3 and is most parsimoniously explained by extensive assimilation of (or language change in) northeastern indigenous Finno-Ugric tribes.

It is common linguistic knowledge(32) that in the northern Russian dialect, Finno-Ugric substratum is well pronounced. This substrate is present, although less so, in central dialect and only marginally detectable in southern dialect.
This scenario of admixture (or language change) in northern Russians is genetically highlighted by high frequencies of haplogroups N2 and N3. Within Europe, haplogroup N3 is frequent among Finnic-speaking groups (40% on average); its average frequency in Slavonic populations (except Russians) is 5% only, whereas its frequency in northern Russians is 35%

NW Russians do have Y-chromosome haplogroup N. 35% - that's about the same as Estonians, maybe even a bit more.

As for maternal lines, the Estonian ones are also typically European.