Britain Is More Germanic than It thinks

[Jackson]

Yeah that's what i was thinking...The only way R1b-U106 could work if they were comparing the relative amounts, like 30% U106 in Frisia say and 20% in Suffolk or something, then 2/3 Frisian but i think you are right, it isn't U106.

Yeah, it's interesting because R1b-U106 is very Germanic, and leans slightly more towards West Germanic.

I found it pretty laughable indeed that earlier this year (i think it was) he was interviewed in recently made program and his word taken as gospel there. Kind of a pain seeing how the public are constantly hearing opposite things. I mean when POBI comes out hopefully Oppenheimer will be pushed to one side but I've met plenty of people who take his opinion/work verbatim. In 2006/7 it was a reasonable argument, but things have moved on now.

Here's a useful graphic from POBI:

[Albion]

Central and Eastern England seem to be the most Germanic areas, and then the north and the south below the Thames. I think it's important as well to look at the map of the island how it was at the time to kind of get an understanding of this, i mean a lot of what is now Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire etc was sparsely populated fen land due to the high water levels, and of course Anglia was a peninsula - Makes it easier to understand how/why they spread into central England:

The Fens was a Celtic enclave for quite some time, I forget the exact details. But Lindsey (Lincolnshire) and East Anglia and all the areas surrounding the Fens were colonised earlier and the Fens held out until relatively late. The Romans had drained parts of them but it is likely that these weren't kept in order when they left and the Fens were flooded again. Kind of ironic that this Celtic enclave was a major area of Anglo-Saxon resistance to the Normans (Hereward hid there).
I'll look for some info to post.

Edit: I still think we are best described as a Celto-Germanic nation though, unless you are talking about a few specific areas.

That's how I think of it anyway.

[Englisc]

Yeah, it's interesting because R1b-U106 is very Germanic, and leans slightly more towards West Germanic.

And specifically low German speakers.

I found it pretty laughable indeed that earlier this year (i think it was) he was interviewed in recently made program and his word taken as gospel there. Kind of a pain seeing how the public are constantly hearing opposite things. I mean when POBI comes out hopefully Oppenheimer will be pushed to one side but I've met plenty of people who take his opinion/work verbatim. In 2006/7 it was a reasonable argument, but things have moved on now.

Yeah, this program was called "How God made the English". I hope people will start to forget about Oppenheimer now, but on Stormfront and such places I see him cited pretty often.

[Jackson]

The Fens was a Celtic enclave for quite some time, I forget the exact details. But Lindsey (Lincolnshire) and East Anglia and all the areas surrounding the Fens were colonised earlier and the Fens held out until relatively late. The Romans had drained parts of them but it is likely that these weren't kept in order when they left and the Fens were flooded again. Kind of ironic that this Celtic enclave was a major area of Anglo-Saxon resistance to the Normans (Hereward hid there).
I'll look for some info to post.



That's how I think of it anyway.

Very true, the Fens seem a very interesting place. I heard a couple of interesting stories surrounding them. From the remaining Fens we have left, i can understand why they held out longer. I also doubt Anglo-Saxons moved in their very quickly either. I mean when you have the rich agricultural land around about already and your people are pushing westward into more rich agricultural land - I think it wouldn't have been particularly tempting for most people to go and take it over, but then maybe i'm wrong - I understand they had a way of life adapted somewhat to the fen-land?

[Dacul]

Lol Nordlicht,english people are germanics!
Old english language was quite closed to what old germans were speaking.
The current english with lots of french and latin influences is the result of the conquest of normans which were some vikings mixed with french people,that adopted some kind of french language.
But Y DNA shows not too much scandinavian Y DNA in England.
R1B germanic is not scandinavian,is the result of mixing of germanics people with scandinavians.
Real scandinavian Y DNA are I1 and I2B and N1C1.

[Peyrol]

I seriously doubt that, magically, all the pre-anglosaxon roman colonists and celt-gaelic britons disappeared or moved to Wales or Brittany.

[Balmung]

They should have called it "England is more Germanic than it thinks".

Is there really a great genetic difference between Scots & English? They look most similar too me.

And wasn't there another thread on here where someone posted evidence that the difference between East England and the rest of it wasn't that great as people made it out to be. Pretan? someone want to help me with that thread title?

[Jackson]

And specifically low German speakers.


Yeah, this program was called "How God made the English". I hope people will start to forget about Oppenheimer now, but on Stormfront and such places I see him cited pretty often.

Ah yeah that was it. I started off enjoying it, but once i saw that bit it put the rest into question for me.

I enjoyed that more recent one by Michael Woods though (I was in episode 1 and 2 ), although he seems to have used the same information he did sound skeptical when he was narrating that bit, and later contradicted what was said in it so i think he doesn't share that opinion.

[Englisc]

Old english language was quite closed to what old germans were speaking.

This is true, the simmiliarities are striking. From Old English wikipedia:

OE - Modern German

ȝ pronounced like y, ƿ pronounced like w.

and – und
burg – Burg
fisc – Fisch
"gōdne morȝen" – „guten Morgen“
hātan – heißen
ic – ich
sƿeart – schwarz
ƿeald – Wald
ƿeorðan – werden
þū - du
Bidde - Bitte
ƿeorpan - werfen
stede - Stätte
helpan - helfen

http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E...isc_spr%C7%A3c

[Albion]

Yeah that's what i was thinking...The only way R1b-U106 could work if they were comparing the relative amounts, like 30% U106 in Frisia say and 20% in Suffolk or something, then 2/3 Frisian but i think you are right, it isn't U106.

Yeah, it's interesting because R1b-U106 is very Germanic, and leans slightly more towards West Germanic.

I found it pretty laughable indeed that earlier this year (i think it was) he was interviewed in recently made program and his word taken as gospel there. Kind of a pain seeing how the public are constantly hearing opposite things. I mean when POBI comes out hopefully Oppenheimer will be pushed to one side but I've met plenty of people who take his opinion/work verbatim. In 2006/7 it was a reasonable argument, but things have moved on now.

Here's a useful graphic from POBI:

I don't think haplogroups are tested to show similarity between populations now, I think it's aDNA (someone like Artek is the one to ask).
The map clearly shows replacement in South and Central England. The Celtic areas or more diverse (as are the northern and western areas of England).

Yes, sadly a lot of people still believe those early sensationalist claims that we're "descended from Basques that moved here after the last ice age". If anything the English have a better claim to that than the Celtic nations or the Basques - I1 (common in Germanics) was probably in Europe in Europe during the last Ice Age and repopulated it along with I2 (with other haplogroups coming latter - Neolithic and Bronze Age).
R1b probably only goes back as far as the Neolithic in Western Europe at best, in Britain it is probably from the Bronze Age (not particularly surprising when you compare bronze ages and iron ages and see the huge continuity - even the roundhouses are the same).

The people that built the stone circles would have been a mixture of I2, perhaps some I1 and a few of those Neolithic haplogroups found in Britain such as G2a, J and E3b. R1b probably arrived in the late Neolithic / early Bronze age and from a similar area as two of those and continued the Megalithic culture for a while (Stonehenge - one of the last stone circles in the Isles was constructed at around the time when R1b begins showing up). R1b is associated with barrows, and thus the old claim that "the Celts built the stone circles" is wrong (partially anyway, most British Islanders will have some Neolithic ancestry, but the areas where R1b is highest have the lowest claim because there's less ancestry from the Neolithic. Then again a lot of the ancestors of the English would have been building circles in Denmark, Germany and NL instead of Britain, but Neolithic ancestry {in a Northern European context} is higher in England than the Celtic nations).