Spaniards: What's your view of the Franco era?

[Hesperión]

I hope they are grateful, we saved them from communism.

Actually, it was the many thousands of Spanish people who sacrificed their lifes in the war that saved Spain from Communism.

Germany used Spain as a testbed for its aviation. It wasn't a friendly help free of any interest. In fact after the war Spain had acquired a debt with the lender, Germany. A debt that Spain DID PAY:

Spain supplied Germany with large amounts of minerals such as iron, zinc, lead and mercury. All of them needed to feed the Germany war machine. The most important was the supply of wolfram (tungsten), which was vital for the engineering of German weaponry and which Germany had no other way to acquire since the supply sources were few and they were all blocked for Germany.

For the refusal of Spain to end the repayment of the debt to Germany Roosevelt blocked all sale of oil to Spain –a post-war country in dare need of reconstruction.

So we owe you NOTHING.

-----

As for Spain after the Spanish Civil War, take a look at the following maps and try to imagine what History would have been like if the many thousands of Spaniards had not died to prevent the Communists from establishing a pro-Soviet regime in the westernmost region of Europe:

Europe 1939 - 1941 (picture out Spain in red)


Europe 1959 (Cold War alliances, picture out Spain in red)


Who owes to whom?

[Hesperión]

Like the Lannisters the Spanish always pays their debts---->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division ------>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Di...-bolshevism%29

The volunteers of the Blue Division did not go to Russia to help Hitler but to "pay back" the Soviets their visit to Spain during the Spanish Civil War.

[Hesperión]

but the Nationalists

Not the Nationalists but the Nationals.

There's a big difference there.

The Franco era was a quasi-totalitarian regime

It was an authoritarian regime. Not totalitarian. Totalitarian regimes were those of Hitler or Stalin.

but not a backward, isolationist system like North Korea or Kuba.

Isolation was imposed over Spain by the U.S. and Europe for a long time. And through part of the period the economic model was autarkic.

In 50's and 60's, Franco forced the tourist business

What do you mean by forced it?

[Graus]

Actually, it was the many thousands of Spanish people who sacrificed their lifes in the war that saved Spain from Communism.

Germany used Spain as a testbed for its aviation. It wasn't a friendly help free of any interest. In fact after the war Spain had acquired a debt with the lender, Germany. A debt that Spain DID PAY:

Spain supplied Germany with large amounts of minerals such as iron, zinc, lead and mercury. All of them needed to feed the Germany war machine. The most important was the supply of wolfram (tungsten), which was vital for the engineering of German weaponry and which Germany had no other way to acquire since the supply sources were few and they were all blocked for Germany.

For the refusal of Spain to end the repayment of the debt to Germany Roosevelt blocked all sale of oil to Spain –a post-war country in dare need of reconstruction.

So we owe you NOTHING.

-----

As for Spain after the Spanish Civil War, take a look at the following maps and try to imagine what History would have been like if the many thousands of Spaniards had not died to prevent the Communists from establishing a pro-Soviet regime in the westernmost region of Europe:

Europe 1939 - 1941 (picture out Spain in red)


Europe 1959 (Cold War alliances, picture out Spain in red)


Who owes to whom?

My my, arent we defensive? I simply stated a fact. Without our air support, your sacrifices would have been in vain. And our support was a lot more crucial to you, than yours was to us. And it doesnt matter, if it was realatively easy for us to grant it or if we had our own interests as well. If I saved your life, we arent even if you helped me to move, even if you carrying my stuff may be a lot harder for you than it was for me to save your life. Another debt which wasnt repaid in full but hey, we are already used to that.

I dont want come across as a condescending asshole but you basically asking for a pat on the back and a thank you, for your people standing up against a life under communist regime, really highlights what is wrong with certain countries nowadays.

[Hesperión]

My my, arent we defensive?

Because I've put the records straight, I'm being defensive?

I suppose that you'd only be happy if I had thanked your post and said nothing.

I simply stated a fact.

What you call a fact is just what you want to believe it to be.

Actual facts are different:

• We paid back to Germany for the air support that the Nationals received
• The Allies (mostly the U.S.) made us pay for refusing to cut the metal minerals supply to Germany

Since the Republicans had the air forces, aviation support from Germany was important but not vital (less so free of charge). Italy, in contrast, provided aviation support too, free of charge as far as I know. The Italians also gave the Spanish Nationals a few planes that were used to create the new Spanish Air Forces (together with those captured to the Republican forces). Again, free of charge. Out of political sympathies for Spain.

The fact is that, if Germany had not sent its planes, the involvement of Italy would have surely been larger. So it was important but not vital.

Without our air support, your sacrifices would have been in vain.

That's what you would have liked to believe. Not just you. The reds and the liberals too, because that argument, speculative and false as it is, gives them the grounds to link a mainly Counterrevolutionary regime with the Nazi regime.

And our support was a lot more crucial to you, than yours was to us.

With the access to mineral metals from the East blocked by the USSR, and those from the West blocked by the USA, where would you have obtained the prime materials to feed your armament industry?

Not only Spain paid you with the mineral metals that you needed to continue with the war, but it was also through Spain that you obtained more from South America.

And yet it was in vain for you.

I dont want come across as a condescending asshole

Since you mention it, how how would you qualify these words if not those of a condescending arsehole:
"I hope they are grateful, we saved them from communism." ..?

but you basically asking for a pat on the back and a thank you, for your people standing up against a life under communist regime, really highlights what is wrong with certain countries nowadays.

I've asked for nothing. You instead have been very vocal in asking for that pat on the back:
"I hope they are grateful, we saved them from communism."

[Hesperión]

really highlights what is wrong with certain countries nowadays.

Care to explain that comment? (or are you going to leave it at a sneaky stab in the back?)

[Amapola]

I think that Franco and "his men" did their duty of war, but I am not sure that the political result of the war had anything to do with their own figthers' ideologies. Nevertheless, many acepted the decree, held public office and were left out of their former parties. The problem, imho, was that the Franco ideology had the State as his focus instead of the historical rights which allow each region to govern themselves according old traditions. Other than that, my analysis of Franquism is like some that has been said here by now: isolated regime that didn't fall-like some expected- after the WWII and Spain couldn't become reconciled to the Europe that vanquished fascism. Only the Cold War justified that the regime was supported by the powers later on, which consolidated Franco for longer.

[Garbo]

And that's your first post. Congrats Malva

[Hesperión]

I think that Franco and "his men" did their duty of war, but I am not sure that the political result of the war had anything to do with their own figthers' ideologies.

The outcome most probably had to do with the fact that, while the Nationals kept a disciplined army, the Republicans had theirs taken over by a gang of revolutionaries.

Nevertheless, many acepted the decree, held public office and were left out of their former parties. The problem, imho, was that the Franco ideology had the State as his focus instead of the historical rights which allow each region to govern themselves according old traditions.

Unfortunately a modern country can't function without a well organised and strong State.

The problem in Spain is that the State is subservient of the Government and it's transformed with whichever new government comes next into power, to serve the interests of that government instead of serving the interests of the nation. It's dysfunctional.

The next question, after accepting the need for a strong and stable State, would be how to reconcile the State with what you call "the historical rights" of the regions, which I assume that they are the old Charters (Fueros). The problem is that these charters are obsolete and, even if we agreed in that they should exist (and I do, in principle), they should do so within the framework of the present time, adapting themselves to it.

[Graus]

I somewhat doubt Italy would have been able to transport the Spanish troops in time alone or repel the air forces of the other countries involved, especially after what we know about their general poor performance during the second world war but hey believe what you like. Btw we provided aviation as well as countless other forms of support as well. Overall Italy sent more people but as usual they werent that effective.


In the end we helped you and even if our reasons were too a certain degree selfish, you were the primarily beneficiaries. Your example was different since your uprising against your commie government was primarely beneficial to your people as well and everything else is pure speculation.

About my last remark: I meant to see the same kind of attitude most southern countries annoy us with nowadays. They want to be celebrated for things perfectly normal in most civilised countries. Like when they payed a few taxes or axed one of the 14 monthly salaries of their highly overpayed and way too numerous civil servants. It gets old very fast.