Why y-dna R1a1a and I2 are much higher in Greece than southern Italy/Sicily?

[Sikeliot]

There are two arguments for this that I have seen on here, and I thought I would make a separate thread about it so as to not derail the one already going.

Argument 1: These haplogroups were always part of Greece, and are low in southern Italy due to southern Italians not having as much Greek ancestry as originally presumed.

-Sicilians and Calabrese are very high in J2 and about as high in E1b1b as some parts of Greece.. eastern Sicilians are almost completely J2 and E1b1b and thus the concentration of these haplogroups in that specific region is greater than in Greece.
- R1a1a and I2 are very low in southern Italy and Sicily but together comprise around 40% of modern y-dna of northern Greece.


Argument 2: I2 and R1a1a in Greece represent Slavic and/or Balkan admixture that is relatively recent or at least, is more recent than the Greek colonization of southern Italy. Thus, it'd be impossible for these haplogroups to have made it to Sicily and Calabria and thus represent non-Greek ancestry in modern mainland Greeks.


Which do you think is more likely to be true?

[Mark]

Closer to Argument 2. Greece's proximity to Slavic countries where R1a1a is found in a higher percentile.

[Queen B]

Isn't it obvious and logical the first one ?

I mean, what's more possible? That Greeks in Italy managed to stay isolated in a non-Greek area, whereas Greeks in Greece mixed too much, or that Greeks in Italy did mix with locals after more than 2 millenia, and Greeks within Greece, didn't that much ??

I m not any expert on Haplogroups, but I trust more Kabeiros' post , than your theories.

You are, like many others, completely ignorant when it comes to haplogroups and how they are related to ancient or modern peoples.
Haplogroup I2a2 is NOT Slavic but indigenous to the Balkans, that's why Bosnians and Croatians have almost 50% of it, while Russians or other northern Slavs much less of it.
Haplogroup R1a is present in high numbers from Central Asia (Pakistanis, Indians, Turkics etc.) to Eastern Europe (Poles, Russians, Ukrainians) and it's not specific to Slavs either (even Syrians have 10% of this haplogroup for God's shake).
Therefore it is impossible to know just by Y-DNA the ethnicity of someone, let alone of whole nations.

ps I din't even mention things like drift or founder effect, which can change haplogroup distribution in an area in a very short period of time. So please, Sikeliot, don't try to feel good about your self by creating theories with absolutely zero knowledge of genetics, because you only make your self look stupid and naive

[Sikeliot]

Closer to Argument 2. Greece's proximity to Slavic countries where R1a1a is found in a higher percentile.

Some East Sicilian haplogroups:

E1b1b -- 23.68%
J2 -- 28.05%
R1a1a -- 5.26%
R1b -- 18.42%
12 -- 0%

Same haplogroups in Aegean Islanders:

E1b1b -- 20.3%
J2 -- 19.6%
R1a1a -- 7.6%
R1b1b -- 22.8%
I2 -- 11.4%

Sicily has much more J2, but about the same of the others.


Now, northern Greeks:

R1a -- 18.2
R1b -- 13.2
E1b -- 20.6
J2 : 14.9
I2 -- 21.6%

MUCH more I2, R1a, and much less J2 and E1b.

[el22]

Isn't it obvious and logical the first one ?

I mean, what's more possible? That Greeks in Italy managed to stay isolated in a non-Greek area, whereas Greeks in Greece mixed too much, or that Greeks in Italy did mix with locals after more than 2 millenia, and Greeks within Greece, didn't that much ??

I m not any expert on Haplogroups, but I trust more Kabeiros' post , than your theories.

you forget one thing, that greece and slavs (and us) until less than 2 centuries were part of ottoman empire.

[Sikeliot]

^^ you forget one thing, that greece and slavs (and us) until less than 2 centuries were part of ottoman empire.

Yes. Which means during that time, there must have been mixture between them all that has brought Greeks genetically closer to other Balkan people.

[Peyrol]

Obviously J2 in Sicilia is due to the neolithic north african / semithic settlement (Sikanes and Elimi) and recently due to the Sephardits.

[Linet]

You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

PS. I consider Sicilian Greeks but face the fact that not all greek tribes came there....when we are the result of thousant years of mixing between our tribes....OUR TRIBES...not other nations.

[Sikeliot]

Obviously J2 in Sicilia is due to the neolithic north african / semithic settlement (Sikanes and Elimi) and recently due to the Sephardits.

So you don't believe that the very high J2 comes from Greece? I mean, it probably can't now that I look again considering J2 in eastern Sicily is higher than all of Greece except Crete, and it's even higher in western Sicily than much of Greece and there was not as much Greek settlement there.

J2 in western Sicily is probably Phoenician and thus more like what you find in Lebanon.

You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

Then what makes you think Greeks would have mixed in Sicily either? If anything it looks like Normans, Moors, and Romans had only negligible genetic impact, which means they likely left few descendants because the Greek core of the population refused to mix with them.

It IS very possible that northern Greeks were just more Eastern European genetically in antiquity even still and that the divide is ancient.. and not recent. I am unsure.

[Peyrol]

You only try to prove the Sicilians are more Greeks than Greeks...sorry but no....
Greeks never liked to mix...i have never met anyone in my life with a grandfatehr or gradmother from another balkan country not even in a %....so dont come tell us what ancestry we have....

So, why dodecanese an cycladic islanders look pretty much the same of Sicilians and Calabreses, but this don't happen with mainland greeks? Not so many mainland greeks look siculo-calabrese...