Are Ashkenazi Jews A Lost East Gothic Tribe?

[AK-47]

Both the disappearance of the Eastern Goths and the origin of Ashkenazi Jews are shrouded in mystery. I propose that they the answer to both is one and the same. Ashkenazi Jews, speaking a gothic language (Yiddish), are the remnants of Gothic tribes which settled in Crimea and intermarried with Judean and Khazar (who were in turn an Irandid [Scythian, Sarmatian] and Turkic hybrid population) Jews forming the Germanic-Jewish group named Ashkenazim.

A Crimean Gothic Star of David below;






In her monumental work Historische Jiddische Semantik: The language of bible translation as a factor in the progressive divergence between Yiddish and German vocabulary (Max Niemeyer, Tűbingen, 2005) linguist Dr. Erika Timm demonstates that Yiddish has previously been incorrectly categorised as a High German dialect when;




That Ashkenazi Jews ethnogenesis is an amalgam of Gothic, Judean and Khazar (Irano-Turkic) settler populations in Eastern Europe, and especially in the Crimean region, makes sense along historical, ethnic, linguistic and cultural terms. I propose that during the Khazar occupation of the region the Germanic Gothic tribes were Judaized and intermarried with Judean exile populations and Khazar elites to form a new Ashkenazi ethno-religious tribal group as evidenced by the fact that;









Also, in Ashkenazim Y-DNA haplogroups associated with Indo-Europeans (R and Q [Scythians]) are as common as those associated specifically with Near-Easterners (J [although E and others were present in the ancient Near East]);

2/3 of European Jews were lost in the holocaust and that can thwart clear genetic answers to our origins.
There is much politicization of genetic research on Ashkenazi Jews, and generally Y-DNA studies are cherry-picked to show our "middle eastern" origins.
Autosonal DNA studies are largely buried or ignored, and very little time or effort is made on mitochondrial studies of Ashkenazi Jews; because of the uncomfortable reality that our maternal lines are overwhelmingly gentile European.
In my opinion the European ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews is currently underestimated on the paternal side. We have autosomal overlap with regional Sicilian populations, many southern Italians and many Peloponnese Greek populations.
It will take some time to get a clearer picture, much science is yet to be done.

[Damião de Góis]

Sacking Rome, destroying all the millennian engineering masterpiece roman aqueducts, letting people starving and dying of thirst makes Visigoths superior? Congratulations, you concept of superiority is at least scandalous..

Superior in a barbarian perspective.

[Tauromachos]

Are Sicilians an lost East Gothic tribe?

[Longobarda]

1. North Africans were not mixed with Blacks when they conquered Iberian peninsula. They mixed centuries later, due the Black slave trade. You use the same arguments as Black supremacists who say dumb things as Hannibal Barca was Black or Mulato. This is another image from Moors from North Africa allied with Christians in a battle in Marrakech. Is not my fault that they are not Black:


2. Moors who invaded the Iberian peninsula came from the old Roman province of Mauritania, nowadays North Morocco:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauri_people

The country of Mauritania simply took its name:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mauritania

But you are so ignorant that even didn't know this

3. The photo you posted is from the Almoravid dynasty, the only one formed by Black Berbers and originated not even in North Africa but in SS Africa. They had nothing to do with the Moors who invaded Iberian peninsula, neither were a native dynasty from Al Andalus, because they invaded and ruled it for one century. So you act again like these Black supremacist who try to proof that Ancient Egyptians were Black using images of the Nubian dynasty.

Moorish troops of Almanzor during the battle of San Esteban de Gormaz from "cantigas de Alfonso X El Sabio"



Self-depiction of three morish knights found in Granada on Alhambra's ladies tower



Bottle of the musicians from Al-Andalus kept in Cordoba's ethnological museum



Abassid Golden age



sea of the Caliphs



The moors and the Solomon star (Tartessos' star)

[Longobarda]

Just an average Jewish-Goth hybrid.

Manuscript depicting Charles the Simple giving his daughter Gisela to Rollo the Viking (BLMedieval Royal 16 G VI)

[Longobarda]

Yes, even though Iberia is located next to Africa we very completely different people, something which genetics has proven if there was any doubt anyway:



But of course in the jewish world this black magic doesn't make any sense.

Haplos Iberia.JPG

[Longobarda]

Just a question, why do Apricity Spaniards go apeshit over this topic? Do they consider Visigoths the most important component of their genetics, if it is present?

Germanic migrations in Spain and Portugal

In the 4th and 5th centuries the cooling of the climate prompted Germanic and Slavic tribes to migrate south and west and to invade the Roman Empire in search of more fertile lands.
In 406, the Alans (who were not Germanic but of Iranian origin), the Suebi and the Vandals crossed the Rhine together, invading Gaul, then three years later, they crossed the Pyrenees into Roman Hispania. The Suebi migrated to the western half of Iberia, where they established the Kingdom of Gallaecia (409–585). The Vandals and the Alans went south to Andalusia, then crossed over the North Africa in 429, where they founded a kingdom that also comprised Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica.
The Suebi were the only of the three tribes that actually settled in Iberia. As a Germanic tribe, they would have brought haplogroups I1, I2a2a (M223, formerly known as I2b1), R1b-U106 and R1a (L664, Z282 and Z283 subclades) to the Iberian peninsula, and indeed all of them except R1a are found essentially in the western half of the Iberian, especially in Portugal and Galicia. R1a is found in northern Castile, Asturias and Cantabria, and could either have been brought there by the Visigoths, or be the descendants of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (as is the case of the Pasiegos).
The Goths, who were the first to penetrate into the Roman Empire at the beginning of the 4th century, first settling in the Balkans, and eventually split into two factions, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths. The latter, under the command of Alaric I, sacked Rome in 410, then went to establish a Visigothic Kingdom in south-western Gaul in 418. Quickly expanding over all Aquitania, the Visigoths now looked to expand south, and by the middle of the 5th century they had conquered most of central and southern Iberia. In the 580's they annexed the Suebi Kingdom, as well as the land of the Cantabrians and the Basques. The Visigothic Kingdom lasted until the Muslim conquest of Iberia in 711.
The Visigothic Kingdom was the larger and longer lived than the Suebi Kingdom, and yet the Goths do not seem to have had any significant genetic impact on the Iberian population - at least not in terms of Germanic Y-DNA. The reason might simply be that they were no longer a predominantly Germanic tribe. After all, the Goths had lived for many centuries in Eastern Europe and nearly two more centuries in the Balkans before invading Italy, Gaul and Iberia. They could have assimilated a lot of non-Germanic people on the way, notably R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and J2 Balkanic people. It would be pretty complicated at the moment to untangle the Balkanic E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia. But it is remarkably easy to check the Eastern European I2a1b (M423) and R1a (M458 and Z280). No historical migration could account for Slavic haplogroups in Iberia apart from the East European populations assimilated by the Goths before the 4th century. The I2a Project at FTDNA has three M423-Dinaric-N and one M423-Isles-B2 from Spain, while the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project has four Spanish Z280 (CTS1211+) members.
Overall, the Germanic migrations did not leave a lot of Germanic DNA in the Iberian peninsula. That is not suprising considering that there were only 40,000 Suebi who settled there permanently, and they were the biggest contigent if we exclude the heavily hybridised Visigoths. Galicia, northern and central Portugal, and Catalonia are the regions with the highest ratios of Germanic Y-DNA today (approx. 5 to 10% of the male lineages), which is consistent with the historical settlements of the Suebi, and the Frankish influence in Catalonia's case. Paternal lineages of the ruling classes, however, are generally an overestimation of the true genetic conttribution, since foreign invaders turned monarchs and nobles tend to procreate more by having multiple sexual partners (if not multiple wives, at least mistresses or concubines). Unfortunanately it is impossible at present to determine the amount of Germanic mtDNA, as this would require testing full mitochondrial sequences (which very few studies have done to date), and even then it may prove elusive due to the limitations of the extremely short mtDNA sequence. A reasonable estimation is that Germanic genes represent no more than 1% of the Iberian gene pool, with maximums of perhaps 3% or 4% in Galicia and northern Portugal.

[Longobarda]

But those graphs (as I've said before) show about 25% common heritage between you and Moroccans.

In the 7th century, early Muslims from the Arabian peninsula started spreading their new faith and conquered a good part of the Middle East and the whole of North Africa under the Umayyad Caliphate. In 711, they crossed the Stait of Gibraltar and invaded Iberia, which they called Al-Andalus. This was the commencement of Moorish period in the peninsula, which would last for nearly eight centuries, until the fall of the Emirate of Granada to the Catholic monarchs in 1492.
The Inquisition killed or expelled a lot of Muslims, but, as was the case with the Jews, many converted to Christianity and remained in Spain and Portugal. As many as 275,000 of these Moriscos, as the converts were known, were expelled from Castille and Valencia in the early 17th century, but many more lingered in other regions, notably Aragon, Andalusia, Extremadura and Portugal. At one point, Moriscos accounted for 20% of the population of Aragon. It is probably not a coincidence that haplogroups E1b1b, J and T make up 20% of modern Aragonese male lineages, despite the fact that the region was never under Phoenician or Greek influence.

The Moors would have been a hybrid population composed of Arabs, belonging chiefly to Y-haplogroups J1-P858 and T, with small amounts of J2a, R1a-Z93 and R1b-V88, and Berbers, who were then almost exclusively E-M81. It is now possible to distinguish Arabic J1-P858 from Jewish J1-L816 and Phoenician J1-YSC234 or J1-YSC76, but none of the studies on Iberian Y chromosomes have tested deep J1 subclades to date. All that is known is that all of these subclades have been found both in Portugal and Spain in commercial DNA tests, but data is insufficient to determine regional proportions of each subclade. Regarding E-M81, many subclades exist, but none have been found to be exclusively European or North African, so it is not yet possible to tell apart M81 that came to Iberia during prehistory from the more recent contribution of the Moors.

[Cristiano viejo]

WUT! Longobarda talking about Spaniards even in a thread about Ashkenazis!

[Longobarda]

You do realize that since the North Euro component in Northern Italians comes from Gothic tribes (Lombards, Ostrogoths) you're agreeing with me just placing the merger in Italy and not Crimea?

Germanic Y DNA.jpg