Dicky wants to convert Turkey. Remembers he's an Atheist.

[Poltergeist]

He shouldn't have much difficulty 'reaching out' in Turkey.

From my recent "research" there, the percentage of people in higher education, that speak english and that are non-religious, must be higher that in the average European country.

It is mostly the old people as well as the lower socioeconomic strata that are religious, and to the average Turk aged 25-35, the mosques and daily prayers are simply folklore.

Kemal made the Turks technocrats, practical-minded, go - getters and (surprisingly enough) more disciplined and hard-working than their average southeastern European counterparts.

Atheism, science and practicality in all aspects are flourishing in Turkey.

Turkey is no backward Islamic country no more...which is awesome for them, but for us, should they *ever* granted access in the EU, we should be afraid, be very afraid.

You are both right and wrong.

There is a difference between explicit and implicit atheism.

The implicit one is very present in Turkey, as you rightly point out. Although one can object to your remarks with the fact that the "highly educated" ones you are referring to aren't but a small minority of the population.

There is however some sort of cultural islam, understood as part of their national identity, widespread in Turkey, which means that a direct attack upon it in form of a Dawkinsian militant atheism could elicit negative reaction even from formal "atheists".

There is also Turkish nationalism, an ideology invented by Kemal Ataturk, traiditionally opposed to (pan)-islamism, but it seems that the two ideologies have come, with time, to a certain kind of synthesis. Especially under the rule of the nominally "Islamist" party of Recep Tayyip Erdogan (since 2001).

[Poltergeist]

He's an arrogant sort, and I don't necesarily agree with his message, but anything that serves to weaken Islam is fine by me.

weakening Islam anywhere would be good I think. those that are here hold fast to it because it is constantly reinforced outwith our borders.

Teach them chemistry and physics and then let them go and date rocks.

These kinds of campaigns could even strengthen islam.

[Absinthe]

You are both right and wrong.

There is a difference between explicit and implicit atheism.

The implicit one is very present in Turkey, as you rightly point out. Although one can object to your remarks with the fact that the "highly educated" ones you are referring to aren't but a small minority of the population.

There is however some sort of cultural islam, understood as part of their national identity, widespread in Turkey, which means that a direct attack upon it in form of a Dawkinsian militant atheism could elicit negative reaction even from the formally "atheist" ones.

There is also Turkish nationalism, an ideology invented by Kemal Ataturk, traiditionally opposed to (pan)-islamism, but it seems that the two ideologies have come, with time, to a certain kind of synthesis. Especially under the rule of the nominally "Islamist" party of Recep Tayyip Erdogan (since 2001).

That is valid argumentation in theory, but have you been to Turkey lately?

I am not saying what you say is entirely wrong, but I am saying : do not underestimate your rivals.

If our stereotype of what Turks are like comes from the rugged kebab shop - owning immigrants that came to Europe in the 60s, then this idea is largely inaccurate as those immigrants represent an older generation of Turks that is now being replaced by bon viveurs, skilled proffesionals, doctors, lawyers and successful businessmen.

I am not praising them; I am trying to shake off the "scruffy anatolian goat herder" stereotype as this is not what we're up against today.

This may be only a portion of the population as you say, but they're the dominant generation, and they're also the first ones that will flee to Europe with ease if their membership request is granted.

[Spaniard_Truth]

Turks are a really ugly nation, and I never care what ugly people think.

[Absinthe]

Turks are a really ugly nation, and I never care what ugly people think.

Now that is some valid geopolitical argument

(This is why Europeans are losing)

[Lutiferre]

Turks are a really ugly nation, and I never care what ugly people think.

What a fantastically mature point of view.

[Freomæg]

Would that be the 'weakening of Islam' in Europe or the 'weakening of Islam' outside of our concern?

Fair point. I'd prefer to see Islam wiped from the face of the Earth, as with all the Abrahamic faiths. But, two points: 1) I don't see it as my personal obligation to oppose Islam outside of my country, and 2) I will always stand with Christians against Islam (and Atheo-Fascism - if that's a term!?).

[Spaniard_Truth]

What a fantastically mature point of view.

Actually ugliness is a sign of biological undesirability. Nothing exists for non-selective reasons, and therefore beauty, as all things, points to health, and ugliness to lack thereof.

The education and "civilisation" of filth reeks of Christianity, which lesser minds perpetuate because of religiously-tinged cultural socialization and their inability to think for themselves.

I, however, am not remotely interested in other people and their business. How filth live their lives is not my interest. I'd laugh a little if they died, but certainly wouldn't spend any more energy on them than that.

Oh, but hopefully they'll be converted and they'll respect women's feelings and recycle and plant trees and shit. That's what I really hope for.

[Spaniard_Truth]

Now that is some valid geopolitical argument

(This is why Europeans are losing)

Caring about other people's affairs I find to be significantly correlated with stupidity

Edit: And where was the argument? It was a statement of my opinion. Do you think I care about 'arguing' and attempting to convert people to my perspective? How primitive. I couldn't care in the least about such pedestrian matters. Nobody has ever affected my thoughts, and I have no desire to affect anyone else's.

[Poltergeist]

That is valid argumentation in theory, but have you been to Turkey lately?

Yes.

I am not saying what you say is entirely wrong, but I am saying : do not underestimate your rivals.

I don't. My post was not written in the spirit of underestimation.

And I am also aware of the fact that Turks tend to be more hard-working, better professionals etc. than many eastern Europeans (who have been corrupted by Communism and are often lazy and incompetent).

If our stereotype of what Turks are like comes from the rugged kebab shop - owning immigrants that came to Europe in the 60s, then this idea is largely inaccurate as those immigrants represent an older generation of Turks that is now being replaced by bon viveurs, skilled proffesionals, doctors, lawyers and successful businessmen.

My stereotype doesn't come from that. And I generally dislike stereotypes.

I am not praising them; I am trying to shake off the "scruffy anatolian goat herder" stereotype as this is not what we're up against today.

This stereotype is held by the most stupid and uneducated part of the western European population.

This may be only a portion of the population as you say, but they're the dominant generation, and they're also the first ones that will flee to Europe with ease if their membership request is granted.

Yes, they are dominant there. In fact, what I was saying doesn't run counter to what you were saying. My own observation was that in Turkey a unique synthesis of (very moderate) islamism, Turkish nationalism and modernity has been forged. I met people from this class you are referring to, who have nothing against the current variety of islam (the Erdoganian one) as practiced in Turkey today, who praise Erdogan as a wise leader etc. And I don't think they care in any way about silly stories and moralisations Richard Dawkins could offer to them, in the same way as they wouldn't give a hoot about preaching of some radical Saudi imam, who could eventually lambast them for being "bad Muslims".