Your favourite Slavic nation apart for your own..

[Nationalitist]

Didn't Kossuth say Primurje is Hungarian?

It's Prekmurje (prek = over, Mura = river, so it's "over Mura" region, or districtus transmuranus, as it was known in middle ages), Primorje/Primorska is a region bordering with Italy, also known as Slovene Littoral.

He cals it "muravidek" as Hungarians call it now, but historicaly they called it "vendividek" and they considered Slovenians as "Vends", a seperate ethnicity from the rest of Slovenia which has it's place in Hungarian state. Many Lutheran Slovenians supported this as they were mostly pro-Hungarian through history for several reasons. One is that they considered Habsburg monarchy as 'anti-protestant' and thus sided with Kossuth against Habsburgs (while Catholic Slovenians in Prekmurje supported Habsburgs), also they were minority and more connected with Hungarian Lutherans. They were first class citizens while Catholic Slovenians had a second class citizen status. It should also be noted that Hungary in 19th century and in the beggining of 20th century was some kind of protestant oligarchy and Hungarian nationalism was in favour of Lutherans (though Catholics also supported it). As far as I know Lutherans in Slovakia were also less patriotic...

Anyway, Prekmurje Slovenians have a distinct language from other Slovenians, though it is now considered only as a dialect. We have Hungarian accent and few Hungarian words, but the main difference is that Prekmurian language has it's origins in Pannonian Slovenian, simmilar to Old Church Slavonic - we have been separeted from other Slovenians even before Hungarians came, since Prekmurje was part of Lower Pannonia and not Carantania (the two states were briefly united under Carolingian rule).

This language difference between us and other Slovenians was the main argument for Prekmurje being Hungarian and not Slovenian, needless to say it didn't have much weight and it was only accepted by supporters of Hungarian chauvinism. Hungarians were always minority in Prekmurje.

[Nationalitist]

Pity Slovenia was first to secede from Yugoslavia. Here is a historical note:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...639C946996D6CF

Slovenes and Croatians agitating in favour of union with Serbia.

Why? Yugoslavia was a big failure, especialy after WW2 when it became Communist dictatorship. I know many people are sympathetic towards Tito's Yugoslavia because it wasn't "Stalinist" (although only since 1948, besides from years 1945-1950 it has probably the most cruel Communist regime in Europe at that time, there were also many atrocities commited by Communists during the world war).

As for the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (first it was known as kingdom 'SHS' - kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, until January 6th Dictatorship in 1929), yes there was a lot of support because Slovenians have seen it as a chance to defeat germanization and magyarization once and for all. Complete independence was always our dream, but at that time it wasn't realistic. The problem of Kingdom of Yugoslavia was that it was unitaristic and ignored national identities of Slovenians and Croats, also it was dominated by Serbs.

It should be noted that Slovenian nationalists fighting against Austria in the north of Slovenia weren't supported by Yugoslavia but rather stabbed at the back. General Maister, great Slovenian hero, made a crucial decision and started fighting the Austrians on his own, he drove Germans out of Maribor and his troops liberated much of north Slovenia. Carinthia was basicaly conquered, but the government in Ljubljana has shown little interest to support Maister and his troops. One of the reasons why we supported the unification was that we expected Serbian help in Carinthia. Serbs did eventualy go to Carinthia but created only trouble. Some of them surrendered to Austrians and told them that Yugoslavia doesn't want Carinthia. Later events prooved this was true. Slovenian army was ordered to retreat (order came from Belgrade), which was insane considering the fact that they have basicaly won. Serbian army was sent to Carinthia and the local population was complaining about their behaviour, which was one of the reasons why Austria won on plebiscite on October 10, 1920, that determined the border between Austria and Yugoslavia. Another reasons were that Austrians cheated, they had better propaganda and there was a lot of intimidation from their side. Btw, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Serb or anything, I believe that this imperialism did a lot of damage to them as well, I blame Yugoslavia for this mess, not Serbs. Relation between Serbs and Slovenians shouldn't be judged solely on the events in Carinthia, I'm grateful for Serbian help during ww2 where a lot of Slovenians had to emigrate to Serbia because of Nazis.

[Nationalitist]

I wonder what the fate of the Slovene minority in Austria will be.

Carinthian problem could be solved after ww2, but it wasn't. Some say that Tito gave up on Carinthia in exchange for Slovenian Home Guard units (domobranci, anti-communists), who were then sent to Yugoslavia and killed (more than 10.000 of them).

Loss of Carinthia has been very painful for Slovenians since Carinthia is considered a "birthplace of Sloveniandom" (Carinthia was center of Carantia and in Carinthia the ritual of "ustoličevanje" (installation of the dukes of Carantania) took place). I believe that in this "tolerant" EU environment the national struggle has been weakened. Ironically as much as he was anti-Slovenian, Haider actualy encouraged Slovenian nationalism with his chauvinism.

Italy is a different case because some ghost of fascism is still present there. Slovenian minority there also takes great pride in TIGR, Slovenian anti-italianization organization (Italians call them terrorists), which was actualy the first anti-fascist organization in Europe (not to be confused with today's ideological anti-fascism). More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIGR (they weren't communists, they were mainly liberal.. some of them were killed by communists)

[Amarantine]

Let's see...hm Montenegrins and....hm hm ...again Montenegrins...

[Jarl]

It's Prekmurje (prek = over, Mura = river, so it's "over Mura" region, or districtus transmuranus, as it was known in middle ages), Primorje/Primorska is a region bordering with Italy, also known as Slovene Littoral.

Right. "Prek"??? In Polish it would be "nad" ---> "Nadmurje", like Naddniestrze in Moldavia. Primorje is Istria, right?

He cals it "muravidek" as Hungarians call it now, but historicaly they called it "vendividek" and they considered Slovenians as "Vends", a seperate ethnicity from the rest of Slovenia which has it's place in Hungarian state. Many Lutheran Slovenians supported this as they were mostly pro-Hungarian through history for several reasons.

Right. Its the same with germanised protestant Masurians who, though Polish-speakers, in majority supported Prussia/Germany. In XIX century religion was very important in defining sense of nationality among common folk. If you were Catholic you were Polish, if you were Protestant, you were usually considered Prussian. Anyway "vendividek" says it all. Germans called Southern Prussia Masurenland - since it was settled by peasants from Polish Masovia.

One is that they considered Habsburg monarchy as 'anti-protestant' and thus sided with Kossuth against Habsburgs (while Catholic Slovenians in Prekmurje supported Habsburgs), also they were minority and more connected with Hungarian Lutherans. They were first class citizens while Catholic Slovenians had a second class citizen status. It should also be noted that Hungary in 19th century and in the beggining of 20th century was some kind of protestant oligarchy and Hungarian nationalism was in favour of Lutherans (though Catholics also supported it). As far as I know Lutherans in Slovakia were also less patriotic...

Really? Weird... Why would Hungarian Catholics support a state that fights their own religion and promotes another? Or was it just the Catholic Slavs that became the subject of these restrictions? No wonder they were less patriotic if they were the ones who benefited from the system.

[Jarl]

Anyway, Prekmurje Slovenians have a distinct language from other Slovenians, though it is now considered only as a dialect. We have Hungarian accent and few Hungarian words, but the main difference is that Prekmurian language has it's origins in Pannonian Slovenian, simmilar to Old Church Slavonic - we have been separeted from other Slovenians even before Hungarians came, since Prekmurje was part of Lower Pannonia and not Carantania (the two states were briefly united under Carolingian rule).

But can you understand other Slovenians well? Are these differences small enough? So is Prekmurje mostly Catholic or Lutheran?

This language difference between us and other Slovenians was the main argument for Prekmurje being Hungarian and not Slovenian, needless to say it didn't have much weight and it was only accepted by supporters of Hungarian chauvinism. Hungarians were always minority in Prekmurje.

Right. Its like Germans before WWII. They called the Masur dialects a different language, although they were nearly identical to the neighbouring Masovian dialects, just across the border. Today there is also small group of separatists in Silesia (perhaps 1% of the total population and very foten with some German ancestry) that want autonomy and regard Silesian as a different language

[Jarl]

Carinthian problem could be solved after ww2, but it wasn't. Some say that Tito gave up on Carinthia in exchange for Slovenian Home Guard units (domobranci, anti-communists), who were then sent to Yugoslavia and killed (more than 10.000 of them). Loss of Carinthia has been very painful for Slovenians since Carinthia is considered a "birthplace of Sloveniandom" (Carinthia was center of Carantia and in Carinthia the ritual of "ustoličevanje" (installation of the dukes of Carantania) took place). I believe that in this "tolerant" EU environment the national struggle has been weakened. Ironically as much as he was anti-Slovenian, Haider actualy encouraged Slovenian nationalism with his chauvinism.

I read abouth that Duchy. Slovenians formed there a state first. Only in mid VIII century it was subjugated by the Franks.

What is most worrying is that there is always a higher risk of assimilation in countries that are richer than the home country. People get materialistic. I don't know the official stats, but it appears that within the lat 50 years the number of Slovenes in Austria nearly halved.

Italy is a different case because some ghost of fascism is still present there. Slovenian minority there also takes great pride in TIGR, Slovenian anti-italianization organization (Italians call them terrorists), which was actualy the first anti-fascist organization in Europe (not to be confused with today's ideological anti-fascism). More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIGR (they weren't communists, they were mainly liberal.. some of them were killed by communists)

Im not certain about Italy. Perhaps the provincional characer of the areas inhabited by Slovenes and their relatively large numbers are best safeguards against the process of disintegration.

P.S.

Do you actually have any stats? Do you know how many Slovenes live today in Austria and Italy? Wiki says its 25 000, and 83-183,000 respectively... This wide span of Italian Slovenes estimate is baffling...

[Jarl]

Yes. I know that Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the best possible solution at that time. There was simply no better alternative. And I could guess that it was dominated by Serbs. After all it developed mainly from Serbia. I do not feel sympathetic towards Tito and the communists. I understand there were commiting atrocities, just like they did in Poland after WWII.

It's just the sole notion of united Southern Slavs that I like. Obviously not at all costs... and at the expense of smaller nations - like Slovenians. I think that foreign forces played a siginificant role in first, dismantiling Yugoslavia, and second, weakening Serbia by detaching Montenegro and Kosovo.

It should be noted that Slovenian nationalists fighting against Austria in the north of Slovenia weren't supported by Yugoslavia but rather stabbed at the back. General Maister, great Slovenian hero, made a crucial decision and started fighting the Austrians on his own, he drove Germans out of Maribor and his troops liberated much of north Slovenia. Carinthia was basicaly conquered, but the government in Ljubljana has shown little interest to support Maister and his troops. One of the reasons why we supported the unification was that we expected Serbian help in Carinthia. Serbs did eventualy go to Carinthia but created only trouble. Some of them surrendered to Austrians and told them that Yugoslavia doesn't want Carinthia. Later events prooved this was true. Slovenian army was ordered to retreat (order came from Belgrade), which was insane considering the fact that they have basicaly won. Serbian army was sent to Carinthia and the local population was complaining about their behaviour, which was one of the reasons why Austria won on plebiscite on October 10, 1920, that determined the border between Austria and Yugoslavia. Another reasons were that Austrians cheated, they had better propaganda and there was a lot of intimidation from their side.

That was very similar during Silesian and Masurian plebiscites. In East Prussia, German paramilitaries terrorised the countryside and Polish-speaking Masurians, harassed those who bought Polish newspapers and devastated Polish schools and offices. They killed several Polish activists or even local Masurians who engaged in pro-Polish agitation. They even erected monuments in villages that voted wholly for Germany.

In Silesia, it was similar. They also shipped in 100 of 1000s Germans from mainland Germany, but who were born in Silesia to vote in favour of Germany. However, the Silesians, unlike Masurians, were Catholic and had a strong pro-Polish sentiment. They organised themselves and rose up against Germans enforcing a fait accompli upon the Entente Powers.

[Jarl]

Btw, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Serb or anything, I believe that this imperialism did a lot of damage to them as well, I blame Yugoslavia for this mess, not Serbs. Relation between Serbs and Slovenians shouldn't be judged solely on the events in Carinthia, I'm grateful for Serbian help during ww2 where a lot of Slovenians had to emigrate to Serbia because of Nazis.

I see with Serbs and Slovenes, its a bit like with Poles and Russians. We are fighint on the same side, yet the Russians commited atrocities in Poland too, and were not overly pro-Polish. However, that's good you still have a sound judgement and are not prejudiced.

[Nationalitist]

Primorje is Istria, right?

Istra is part of Primorska, but Slovenia now occupies only small part of Istra.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...wenien.svg.png

Primorska = blue, the are marked with 1 is historical land of "Goriška" (the city of Gorizia was it's center, which is part of Italy).

(other regions: Carniola=red, Styria=green, Carinthia=yellow, Prekmurje=dark blue)

Right. Its the same with germanised protestant Masurians who, though Polish-speakers, in majority supported Prussia/Germany. In XIX century religion was very important in defining sense of nationality among common folk. If you were Catholic you were Polish, if you were Protestant, you were usually considered Prussian.

Interesting. I guess this was the case of all Slavic Protestants. I would be interested to hear more about Protestantism in Poland..

Anyway, here in Slovenia reformation day is celebrated as a national holiday. Ex-Communist political elite in Slovenia is probably responsible for that, to make mockery out of the Church. Slovenian Protestants in 16th century wrote few books, including first Slovenian book ever written and thus some people consider this as some "birth of Slovenian nation" and are overplaying their importance. Those protestants were from Carniola region, not from Prekmurje, which was under Hungary had no connection to rest of Slovenia. Protestants from Carniola were later persecuted by Habsburgs and today the only remaining Lutherans are from Prekmurje.

Really? Weird... Why would Hungarian Catholics support a state that fights their own religion and promotes another? Or was it just the Catholic Slavs that became the subject of these restrictions? No wonder they were less patriotic if they were the ones who benefited from the system.

Yes, only Catholic Slavs. Hungarian Catholics weren't targeted, Hungarian Catholic nobility supported Hungary, as did the Church in Hungary. Also the Church was infiltrated with liberal ideas. Slovenian Catholics often accused Hungarian priests that they cared more about Hungary than Catholicism.