Anniversary of Swieciany. Lithuanian collaboration with the Nazi Germany.

[Philo]

WHo?

Lithuanians who collaborated with Nazis and Poles and Ukrainians who desecrate Jewish cemeteries.

Especially fuck Lvov. Nuke that shithole already.

[lI]

Sources in the next post, or I will closed this thread due to your trolling.

I have already posted sources, if you are incapable of following the hyperlinks, maybe you should go back to kindergarten instead of playing the mod here.

Deeply obliged. There are no English subtitles. If you speak Lithuanian so fluently, please provide a summary. Although this will be useless as an argument anyway, as uncheckable.

There are English subtitles, it's youtube - you have to press CC buton to see them:

Broken link. Linking is not your strongest point, is it.

The link in my post works fine, you broke the link yourself when you copy-pasted my post instead of using forum's inbuilt quoting function, so in your quote of my post it's broken. Press on it in my post.

I am saying that you are excusing desecration of Polish graves in Lithuania by the fact that somebody desecrated Jewish graves near Kraków. I am saying that this is kinda pathetic.

I find it kinda pathetic that you pretend to be able to read my mind. I have never said that I condone the desecration of graves, regardless of whom those graves belong to.
I was merely pointing out that you are in no position to play self-righteous indignation on behalf of Poles when your very own fellow compatriots are doing things no less atrocious. If you perceive that as a praise to neo-nazis from my own ethnicity - then, son, you have problems with comprehension.

So AK was in quite good relationship with the Nazis in 1942, and thus provoked retaliations on Poles freely, is what you are saying?

I didn't say that. This is what I said: "Their relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons."

He was active in Rzeszowskie, not in Lithuania, and his memoirs are considered confabulations. However, you are free to quote them here, just to avoid accusations of lying through your teeth.

When have I ever said that he operated in Lithuania? I never said he did. His book is relevant because in it he described AK's mode of operation which was the same in Ukraine and Lithuania, those methods which were universally applied where its units operated in the lands that had to be "cleansed" and they amount to genocide. The survivors in Lithuania are telling the exact same stories, you can hear some accounts in the documentary I linked you to, and AK's own archives from Bernardinai monastery confirm it. They are only considered confabulations by certain touchy Poles who can't stand to face the truth.

Rubbish. Estonia was the strongest.

You play expert on things you know nothing about. Estonia's man-force (same as Latvia's) was wasted in the local SS units fighting Soviets. So, when the Soviet occupation finally arrived they simply didn't have resources to put up as much guerilla fighting as Lithuanians did (Nazis never managed to raise an SS unit from local Lithuanian population - Lithuanians simply retreated to the woods to escape it, so at the onset of the 2nd Soviet occupation there were still enough men left for fighting).

You can read this for the starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers#In_Estonia

Among the three countries, the resistance was best organized in Lithuania, where guerrilla units controlled whole regions of the countryside until 1949.

Why do you think the % of Russians is the lowest in Lithuania rather than Estonia out of the three Baltic states? The guerilla fighting there intimidated immigrants and slowed their settlement.

[Mans not hot]

There are English subtitles, it's youtube - you have to press CC buton to see them:

Right, I forgot, I never use it. I expected subtitles 'printed in'.

I was merely pointing out that you are in no position to play self-righteous indignation on behalf of Poles when your very own fellow compatriots are doing things no less atrocious.

Nonsense. I am in a perfect position to condemn desecration of graves regardless where it happens, I don't need to start pissing competition about whose skinheads are worse. You have some weird understanding of national loyalty.

I didn't say that. This is what I said: "They're relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons."

I know what you said. The thing is about the ambiguous use of 'only'. Misunderstanding, I got your meaning now.

When have I ever said that he operated in Lithuania? I never said he did. His book is relevant because in it he described AK's mode of operation which was the same in Ukraine and Lithuania, those methods which were universally applied where its units operated in the lands that had to be "cleansed" and they amount to genocide.

Link dear, if you are trying to prove that AK committed ethnic cleansing in Lithuania, then you need sources about Lithuania, not central Poland or Ukraine. AK response to UPA murders is widely known, your claims about genocide of Lithuanians are yet to be proved. The role of AK executioners is widely known, and it's irrelevant to the alleged genocide. Even if Dambski's diaries are sterling truth, they have nothing to do with anything that supposedly happened in Lithuania.

The survivors in Lithuania are telling the exact same stories, you can hear some accounts in the documentary I linked you to, AK's own archives from Bernardinai monastery. They are only considered confabulations by certain touchy Poles who can't stand to face the truth.

There's hardly any truth in that film.

Estonia's man-force (same as Latvia's) was wasted in the local SS units fighting Soviets. So, when the Soviet occupation finally arrived they simply didn't have resources to put up as much of a guerilla fighting as Lithuanians did (Nazis never managed to raise an SS unit from local Lithuanian population - Lithuanians simply retreated to the woods to escape it, so at the onset of the 2nd Soviet occupation there was still enough men left for fighting).
You can read this for the starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers#In_Estonia

I checked some other sources as well. And, a couple of Estonian pages say that the number of anti-Soviet partisans was about, erm, 20 thousand... Your point then. I just remembered some articles from years ago claiming that overall in all those years hundreds of thousands of Estonians took part in resistance. Seems they were exaggerating a tad.

Why do you think the % of Russians is the lowest in Lithuania rather than Estonia out of the three Baltic states? The guerilla fighting there intimidated immigrants and slowed their settlement.

Could be the reason, but it's just a speculation. Unnecessary.


So I saw this this film, Link, and it's what I expected, a clumsy anti-Polish propaganda made by half-wits. The 'historians' keep ranting about 'genocide', but give not a single checkable factual information. The witnesses describe atrocities, but consistently avoid relevant data likewise. During the whole film, about 45 minutes, not even the narrator cares to drop a single place name, and this is a basic information, and the one that nobody ever forgets. People might get confused about details or exact dates, but they never forget where the atrocity happened and never neglect to put the name in their relation.

One of the witnesses didn't actually meet the perpetrators, he fled in time and returned to see the corpses. The two other say the murderers were speaking Polish, and this is the only clue that they might have been AK soldiers. But, in the region everybody spoke Polish, those witnesses including, yet nobody claims they were AK members. Those people could have been plain robbers, or NKVD operatives. Or AK members, of course, but this is as speculative as the other options.

The two documents presented are laughable. The lists of enemies of Poland were routinely created by AK all over the country and had no connection with ethnic cleansing, as both the narrator and the historians happily claim. For ethnic cleansing you don't need a register, you just go and kill whoever looks like an alien. Those were lists of people especially dangerous to Poles and Polish cause, the most brutal occupation officials and traitors. People either to distrust, or to punish including by death. Those were not lists of 'people to annihilate', however, as the narrator claims, even if some of them could face the death sentence, had been given one, or were actually executed.

On the list shown, I found 25 reasons for putting people there. Of those, 11 changed their nationality to Lithuanian (7) or were Lithuanian chauvinists (4), 8 were communists, 4 Nazi collaborators, 1 was torturing political prisoners, and one a generic 'enemy of Poland.' FYI, changing your nationality to that of the enemy, during a war, is capital treason. Being active in fighting your country makes you an enemy by definition. The other categories don't need explanation, I suppose. "Being friendly with Lithuanians" doesn't feature there, and if "kissing the Lithuanian flag" was a capital crime to Poles, then the film makers could have just shown it as a proof. They didn't. "Mentioning Smetona's name" should have been shown as well, being such a ridiculous reason for assassination.

The other document was supposed to prove that the AK Commander, "Wilk" Krzyzanowski, wrote letters to the local Wehrmacht leader. But... the document header says: "Betr.: Weisspolnische Banden." Anybody who believes than an AK Commander calls his units "Gangs of White Poles" needs his head checked.

The document is written by somebody with a fluent command of German. And the signature says "Gen. Wulff". This is meant to be Krzyzanowski's pseudonym, except that Wilk translates to German as Wolf. Not Wulff, which is a German surname. Obviously, this letter is an internal German correspondence.

The funny thing is that this clumsy effort to accuse AK of cooperation with Wehrmacht is utterly futile. The fact is popularly known in Poland, had been presented in lots of popular historical books. The agreement was kinda armistice in the face of the coming Soviet front, and Germans promised to kinda loose some weapons for AK to use in combat against the Soviets. Nobody in Poland makes a secret of it - and it has no relevance to the purported genocide, of course. It's only supposed to serve as just another piece of ***** thrown on the murderous AK.

Anyway. The narrator says, and this is rich, deserves a full quotation:
[part 3/3 01:26]Information about pogroms of Army Krajowa overwhelmed the whole Lithuania. For resistance and local residents protection was created Lithuanian Security Police, led by General Plechavicius.

As we already know there were no pogroms except of the 'historians' dreams, so nothing to overwhelm the whole Lithuania. Not everybody knows, however, that the Lithuanian Security Service was created in 1941. Not in response to the alleged AK atrocities, because AK didn't even exist then and was inactive until summer 1943 anyway, but in order to support Sipo, the Nazi Sicherheitspolizei - and its activities were typical to this formation, including extermination of Poles, Jews and other minorities. Plechavicius was a leader of another formation, created in 1944 to take over Lithuania after Germans. Not in order to defend locals against AK, as there were even talks of military cooperation between Krzyzanowski and Plechavicius. So the film producers aiming at "disclosing the painful truth about AK" didn't even bother to check the basic undeniable facts of their own history before concocting this bollox.

As the ending accent of the film, the Lithuanian 'historians' smirk about Polish historians 'differently interpreting the facts' and 'rejecting the documents found in 1995'. But, of facts, they showed none, and the documents presented in the film are irrelevant, so I fully agree with Polish historians when they reject them as proofs of AK-made genocide. And we are not alone in this:
A state commission was established by the Government of Lithuania to evaluate activities of Armia Krajowa in Lithuania which had to present conclusions by 1 December 1993.[26][clarification needed] Not a single member of Armia Krajowa, many veterans of which live in Lithuania, has been charged with any crimes as of 2001.[17] A Lithuanian historian Arūnas Bubnys stated that there were no mass murders carried by AK (with the only exception being Dubingai), but that AK was guilty of some war crimes against individuals or selected families; he also notes that any accusations of genocide are false and have an underlying political motive, among them a counteraction to the accusations of widespread German–Lithuanian collaboration and crimes committed by units such as the Lithuanian Secret Police
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–...g_World_War_II


All in all, the film makes first pages in Google searches, but it's worthless - except as an example of a botched hateful propaganda. Got any other 'sources' to support your claims, Link?

[tiger]

'sources'

We don‘t need to prove you anything. It's you who have to admit your crimes if you want to be respected by Lithuanians.

[Mans not hot]

We don‘t need to prove you anything. It's you who have to admit your crimes if you want to be respected by Lithuanians.

Not so easy. If you publish a defamatory statement then you are committing a crime of libel unless you prove that your statement was true. As for now, you haven't done this. Post your source or get off this thread.

[Mans not hot]

Just as I expected, typical Lithuanian chauvinist who's trying to prove that Poles should be guilty for their crimes, but won't reply without no source.

[Mans not hot]

Tiger and Link won't still posting sources. Jeez, I wonder why..

[Mans not hot]

I can provide you some quotes but I'm too lazy to translate. you will have to google translate, soz. It is a summary of book which deals a lot with events that involved Poles. You mentioned one Lithuanian historian to prove something, well, he says somethin you probably wouldn't quote.

If you're too lazy to translate, then why commenting to this thread?

[epirot]

WTF!!!

Slavs (Poles, Russians) are prosecuted today in the baltic countries and have to change their names with this final "S". Total shame. I wonder if Russians (or .... Serbs) even dared to do this to minorities they would automatically be labeled as "butchers", "tyrants", "despotic", bla bla bla....

In any case, all my wishes to the Slavic people of the north against the NAZI evil anti-Slavs....

XxtraXavier : ne predaje se sestro! (dont give up sister!)

[epirot]

^^^ Then i guess Serbs are total idiots for fully supporting the :
- Hungarian alphabet
- Slovakian alphabet
- Rusini alphabet
in Vojvodina.... So, what stops Lithuanians from doing the same? lemme tell you : they have the endorsement of the west to undermine the Slavs.