Lombards of Sicily

[Luchon20102012]

Italians and spaniards are about the same in pigmentation. Northern italians are lighter, and southern italians probably darker than iberians as a whole.

[alfieb]

I don't know about that, but we definitely are. Darker than just about every native European ethnic group, other than Sardinians and Cypriots. I might be leaving someone else out, but feel free to add.

[Ulla]

"Into this environment came the Northern European Normans, and soon after, the Calabrese and Lombard colonists who transformed the island. Thus, post-conquest Sicily was characterized by a complex matrix of ethnic identities, several of which ran across confessional and cultural divides..."

http://books.google.it/books?id=PtXSAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91

[Ulla]

Come imparerai ben presto, tutto il mondo è ossessionato dalla Sicilia, purtroppo...

Ora ho perfettamente capito cosa volevi dirmi un anno fa.

[Sikeliot]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

[Ulla]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

Lombard communities are not American Indian reservations. It's very difficult to know how deep is genetic Lombard influence on the whole Sicily, because Sicily was not like USA in 50's when whites and blacks were separated and literally earmarked. Racial segregation in Sicily ended about 1400/1500, when ethnic struggle was replaced by a cultural and religious clash: rito latino (Lombard, Latinized Sicilians, Langobardi from Campania, French, Normans...) vs. rito greco (Byzantine-Greeks, Grecized Sicilians, converted Saracens...). And since 1500/1600 started many internal migrations. And you should know, since late XIX century millions of Sicilians emigrated and the population has halved.

Lombards in Piazza Armerina were the leading community since 1100/1200 till 1300/1400, but they lived near the castle in the top part of the city, forcing the Grecized population and the Saracens to live outside the city walls. Before their arrival Piazza was named Casalis Saracenorum!

The last genetic studies include all the municipal territories, so include also the Greek and Saracens historical settlments in the area. Nowdays Piazza Armerina has a very large population (22,000). J2, E1b1b in Piazza Armerina could have many derivations, even a Neolithic one.

The point is the amazing preservation in Sicily after 900 years of a language that is not Sicilian. Current studies concerns this amazing conservation only. Just linguistics, not genetics.

[Ulla]

Sicily Y-DNA frequencies:

R1b 26%
R1a 4.5%
I1 3.5%

I2b1 1%
I2a 3%

G 8,5%

J2 23%
J + J1 3,5 %
E1b1b 20,5%

T 4%
Q 1%


Lombards-Longobard (Germanic people) = I1, R1b (R1b-U106), R1a, I2a2a.
Lombards (Northern Italian people, name derived from Longobard) = R1b (R1b-U152), and, according to genetic studies on North-West Italy, lowest incidence of R1b-U106, I1, I2b2, R1a, G, J2, E1b1b...
Normans= I1
Franks = I1, R1b-U106.


Distribution of European J2 Y-chromosome DNA

Austria 9%
France 6%
Provence (France) 8%
Czech Republic 6%
Croatia 6%
Germany 4,5%
Netherlands 3,5%
England 3,5%
Russia 3%
Denmark 3%
Sweden 2,5%



Distribution of European E1b1b Y-chromosome DNA

Ile-de-France (France) 20.5
Serbia 18%
Provence (France) 10.5 %
Croatia 10%
South Germany 8 %
West Germany 8%
Austria 8%
Germany 5,5%

[Sikeliot]

That's true. Autosomally though, if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting (they're already the most southern Europeans, apart from Maltese, on pCA plots) headed into Cyprus.

I'm R1a though.. no idea where that came from. Normans probably, or Greeks.

[Peyrol]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

Lombards are mostly R1b-U152





and even s28

[Ulla]

That's true. Autosomally though, if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting (they're already the most southern Europeans, apart from Maltese, on pCA plots) headed into Cyprus.

I'm R1a though.. no idea where that came from. Normans probably, or Greeks.

In my opinion, i don't know your paternal surname, your family history, and your Y-Dna subclade, but R1a in Sicily is morelikely of Lombard-Langobards origins, from Longobardi from Campania (Salerno-Benevento area, originally a German people). They moved to Sicily during the latinization period under Norman dominion and they settled in the Lombard communities. But i repeat, Lombard communities were not American Indian reservations. And people left the communities to establish in Palermo, Catania, Messina, for many reasons.