Strong Evidence mtDNA H in Europe did not Spread in the Neolithic age

[Artek]

The earlier Mesolithic and Palaeolithic H samples seem to represent early expansions which never really took off... Outliers, if you ask me.

The earlier Mesolithic and Paleolithic H samples are probably not H, maybe HV at best. Those results aren't certain, even a single one of them.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'm almost certain it spread from spain, and that r1b did, as well.

I don't buy for a second that these two can be split apart, either. One didn't come from siberia while the other came from north africa (just as example) and any theory that says that's the case is utter crap.

[Artek]

I'm almost certain it spread from spain, and that r1b did, as well.

So when did R1b spread from Spain?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So when did R1b spread from Spain?

At end of ice age.

[Artek]

At end of ice age.

Well, that's one of the theories. For now I don't see it as credible enough but maybe aDNA will confirm it to the elation of Spaniards that they were always there

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well, that's one of the theories. For now I don't see it as credible enough but maybe aDNA will confirm it to the elation of Spaniards that they were always there

I can't really buy anything else, except maybe north african origin. 6k years ago there was no sahara and things were pretty paradisical.

The idea farming came to europe from near east via land is utterly dead, though. That probably kills the idea LBK spread H or r1b.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

At end of ice age.

That's a seriously outdated theory, nothing enables us to put faith in it.

[Black Wolf]

I want to say that the fact that H's phylogeny tends to portray European-specific clades reminds me of mtDNA haplogroup's J1c clade.

I think that H expanded in Europe during the 8.2 kiloyear event with the Neolithic and subsequently diversified in situ... This is what the aDNA is showing actually.

The earlier Mesolithic and Palaeolithic H samples seem to represent early expansions which never really took off... Outliers, if you ask me.

I agree with what you say here as this seems to be the most likely case from the evidence/data we have to date. I know that the H sample from Mesolithic Karelia is H2a2 or something along those lines. H just like U is a very large and broad haplogroup. To get a better idea of it's spread and time lines we need to look at subclades like H1, H2, H3, etc.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I agree with what you say here as this seems to be the most likely case from the evidence/data we have to date. I know that the H sample from Mesolithic Karelia is H2a2 or something along those lines. H just like U is a very large and broad haplogroup. To get a better idea of it's spread and time lines we need to look at subclades like H1, H2, H3, etc.

I tend to think that most uniparental lineages we find nowadays have expanded within the last 7000 years, this scheme tends to fit for most H clades (including H5).
Y-DNA haplogroups R1b, J2 and R1a seem to have spread much later, probably during the late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age.
The same holds true for most I and G clades found in Europe.

[Caismeachd]

I posted this more than a half a year ago so not everything I say here is what I believe now. A lot has been learned about Mesolithic European hunter gatherers and near eastern farmers through ancient DNA in the last 6 or so months. I think there may have been H in pre Neolithic Europe but most H in modern Europe descends from the near eastern farmers. Without any ancient mtDNA people concluded much of H and other mtDNA in Europe are pre Neolithic because there are many exclusively European subclades. Now we know through ancient mtDNA they were absent(H, J, T in Karelian hunter gatherers, debated H in Mesolithic and Palaeolithic Iberia, for sure RO members in Palaeolithic Iberi and Italy, and in Palaeolithic Italy) from European hunter gatherers and dominate in near eastern farmer immigrants. I planned(not enough time and lazy) about a month ago to gather as much mtDNA from Europe, west Eurasia, or where ever as I possible could and then could create hypothesis on where it all came from. I am just assuming almost all non U5, U4, U2e, U2d in Europe is from the Neolithic or afterwards but it is probably more complicated.

H1 is very popular in Europe. It is usefully around 15% or more in west-central-north Europe(including Finland) and spread out throughout Europe. I think it is a near eastern farmer lineage(even though today is most diverse in Europe and very exclusive to Europe). It has an age estimate of around 15,000 years old and seems very European but I think it originated in the near east and almost all H1 came to Europe with farming.

What subclade of R1b L11 do you have L21, Df27, etc? My paternal lineage is from Britain, my grandpa says his dad said the family was originally Scotch Irish but my great uncle said their dad said the family was originally Scottish, English, and Irish(maybe meaning Scotch Irish). My paternal lineage could be from Scotland or England(I really doubt Wales and Ireland) and I am pretty sure I am under subclade Df27. Me and you have Y DNA R1b L11 and mtDNA U5b2a(I have U5b2a2 maybe you do to), it is pretty rare to find someone with that combination. My dad also has H but a very rare subclade H64 less than 10 members have been found at FTDNA(my dad test was Geno 2,0) Norway(the same area my dads maternal lineage is from)=2, Ireland=2, and Germany=1.

Our maternal linage is from Mesolithic central-west Europe. U5b and more specifically U5b2 dominates mtDNA from Mesolithic central-west Europeans. Already an over 10,000 year old U5b2a2 sample has been found in Germany. Our paternal lineages are from Indo European conquerors(specifically Insular Celts) and maternal lineage from native Mesolithic central-west Europeans, who probably first mixed in with near eastern farmers then Indo Europeans.

I have the same subclade as Graham, L-21, but I don't know much about subclades. I know U5 history well enough but wasn't certain of H1 since so much information out there is vague.