R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celts: Rulers and conqueres of Bronze-Iron age west Europe

[Fire Haired]

Do we have any Y-DNA data on the people of the Yamna Culture? From what I understand this theory inevitably associates them to R1b.

We have 6 Y DNA samples from Yamna culture i dont know exactley what spot but theuy are in Kurgens tradtional Indo European burial. The German scientist have not released the results yet they have had them since at least June 2013 probably alot longer. They also have alot of mtDNA from Yamna culture dating 5,000-6,000 years old and mtDNA from later Urlaic cultures from the north that conquered them 4,000-5,000ybp. They mentioned some info in a Scientific German article that was extremely long. They said they had same pale skin genes as modern Europeans, mainly brown eyes, no Mongliod mtDNA haplogroups all Caucasin, same phenotype as modern europeans.

Here are a few links that explain it
http://www.bmbf.de/pub/neue_blicke_auf_alte_kulturen.pdf\

http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2013/06/ancient-steppe-populations-hints-of.html

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...ionen-der.html

Yamna culture gave birth to Corded ware culture which conquered most of eastern Europe and about 5,000ybp spoke proto Balto Slavic. we have four Y DNA samples from Corded ware culture two 4,800 year old ones in southwest Poland one had G probably G2a and the other had I or J i would guess I2a1b. Then two from central germany 4,600 years old both had R1a1a but their subclade's probably went deeper.

Yamna culture also gave birth to early Indo Iranian culture's that began to migrate and dominte central asia 5,000-4,000ybp. Sinshta and Abashevo cultures. The 4,000 year old tarium mummies in west china were most likley very early indo iranians. We have eight Y DNA samples from them all had R1a1a. We have 22 mtDNA samples only three had Caucasin haplogroups. 14 has C4 which probably means their direct mother line came from the same east asian people group. They were a total mix of European and east asian. Since we know yamna people lived in Europe nd now from DNA they were Europeans and their decedants migrated to actulley this area of asia. Corded ware which also decended from them we know they had some R1a1a so it makes total sense Tarium mummies decended from Yamna culture and were early Indo iranians.

There also are three Y DNa samples from Adronovo culture dating 3,800-3,400 years old Adrnovo is just north of tarium mummies they were in south siberia. We know they decended from Yamna and were very early indo iranians one had Siberian C and two had R1a1a. Their mtDNA out of 9 samples was all Caucasin except one which had Z1. The Adrnovo people had basicalley the same mtDNA haplogroups as later Indo iranian cultures remains like Sycthians and their hair color was mainly blonde-light brown their eye color mainly blue or green also all later Indo iranian y DNA samples had R1a1a and their are 17. They were also shown to be very unrelated to Yamna DNA samples who had mainly brown eyes.

What this shows is their is no Indo European ethnicty. They were a mix of diff ethnic groups that lived around Russia, Ukriane, and the Caucus mountains the Indo Iranians ancestors could have been conquered by Yamna who knows maybe in Y DNA they decended from yamna but their full ancestry came from another people group. Yamna culture was very big so they had diff ethnic groups in diff areas. I kind of went off track Yamna culture would have been R1a1a1b they broke off into Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 and Indo iranian R1a1a1b2. proto Indo European R1a is R1a1a1 M417 and it probably started in Dnieper donets cultures. Yamna culture most likley spoke either proto Indo European or proto Balto Slavic Indo Iranian. Or the northern half spoke proto Balto Slavic Indo iranian since both Indo Iranians and Balto Slavs language originated in Yamna culture and they are brothers in y DNA their languages also most likley form their own branch.

[Artek]

The fact is that R1b in western Europe all falls under R1b L51 is is very young age estimates only go as high as 8,000ybp and it probably spread much later. R1b L51 son R1b L11 is what spread in west europe and it is even younger so that mean r1b came to western europe in probably the late neloithic age and bronze age exactley when indo europeans began and started to spread. R1b L51 father R1b L23 is mainly found around northern and eastern turkey, south caucus, southeast Europe, and Bashkirs in western Kazakstan which is in the steppe. That does not mean it orignated in those areas but it defintley orignated east of Europe or in far eastern Europe. No matter how u but it R1b in western Europe orignates from a migration from the east starting at the earliest 8,000-7,000ybp but it probably would have mainly spread after 6,000ybp.

So the way is rather obvious, R1b went via Turkey and Southeastern Europe(modern Bulgaria, Greece), not through the Pontic Steppe like maciamo states. Bashkir and Kazakh R1b is just an offshoot and northern border of old R1b range but not a logical point of R1b migration into the Europe. It lacks succession of R1b clades and such succession exist in the Balkans. The Bashkirs are also quite recent there.

Older R1b found also among Slavs belongs mostly to the Z2103 branch(downstream of L51 and paralell to the L11, which also is present) that already originated somewhere around the Balkans.

Honorary "Pontic" M269, on the other hand, is virtually non existant among Ukrainians/Russians or Poles and found chiefly among the Jews. That's why I see no proof for such migration and considering M269 as Pontic.Even G2a is more Pontic than that, not to mention R1a-Z93 or even possibly some R1a-Z280 branches.

[ALL]

^^^^^^Oye Vey LOL, there is so much disinformation out there.

First when you say L23 it is downstream of R-M269 true L23* has not been found.

While Western Europe is dominated by the R1b1a2 (R-M269) branch of R1b,

...........................................unknown to be discovered
...........................................L584
...........................................L277
.......................>Z2103/Z2105/Eastern Europe/Anatolia/Steppe/Caucasus /North Western Iran/India
R1b-M269>L23
..................... >L51-Italy/Germany/U.K.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779

The network of Hg R-L23* is characterized by multiple reticulations, which confirm that this haplogroup includes sub-clades yet to be discovered [37]. The frequency and variance distributions of R-L23 (data not shown), together with its age variation, locate the most ancient presence of this lineage in the Circum-Pontic region, where similar estimates, coinciding with the post-glacial period, are registered: 16.8±7 kya in Eastern Bulgaria, 14.3±1 kya in Romania, 14.0±3 kya in the Caucasus and 13.6±2 kya in Anatolia. We abstain from premature conclusions on the coalescent estimate in Eastern Bulgaria since a significant portion of this value derives from a very different singleton haplotype whose exclusion substantially decreases the age estimate to 9.3±4 kya.

R1b pattern is different from R1a with some basal in Saudi Arabia
For example ancient Arabic R1a


In this study you can compare R1a* with R1b L23[most likely these are Z2103]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056775

Table S6 [ARP-Arabian Peninsula]

R1a1-6.31% including some old branches of R1a
R1b-1.62% L23

Europeans genetics and culture since the Neolithic age sstarting 10,000ybp has been very connected with the rest of the world so he needs to stop just talking about Europe if he does not include other areas he wont figure things out about Europe.

True a couple steps up R1b*

R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[6] However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[17]

Kurdish:

They are classified as an Iranian people[21][22][23][24][25][26][27] and they speak the Kurdish language, which is a member of the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages.

Persian:

The Persian people[19] are an Iranian people who speak the modern Persian language[20] and closely akin Iranian dialects and languages.[21][22] Their origins are traced to the ancient Iranian peoples, themselves part of the Indo-Iranian branch of the greater Indo-European peoples.

Of interest R1b- Z2103 downstream R1b*, has been found by both of these groups.

[Fire Haired]

So the way is rather obvious, R1b went via Turkey and Southeastern Europe(modern Bulgaria, Greece), not through the Pontic Steppe like maciamo states. Bashkir and Kazakh R1b is just an offshoot and northern border of old R1b range but not a logical point of R1b migration into the Europe. It lacks succession of R1b clades and such succession exist in the Balkans. The Bashkirs are also quite recent there.

Older R1b found also among Slavs belongs mostly to the Z2103 branch(downstream of L51 and paralell to the L11, which also is present) that already originated somewhere around the Balkans.

Honorary "Pontic" M269, on the other hand, is virtually non existant among Ukrainians/Russians or Poles and found chiefly among the Jews. That's why I see no proof for such migration and considering M269 as Pontic.Even G2a is more Pontic than that, not to mention R1a-Z93 or even possibly some R1a-Z280 branches.

orignally maciamo said R1b L23 probably did go through Turkey then southeast Europe then west europe forming into R1b L51. Now he has changed his opinon. We almost know for a fact R1b in west Europe is of Indo European origin. So saying it came from turkey does not really make sense. Indo European cultures 6,000ybp were around Russia, Ukraine, and the caucus mountains not really turkey at all the Hittites and Antloian speakers probably came just 4,000-4,5000ybp from either southeast Europe or the Caucus. According to Amcaimo R1b l23 is froms outheast Europe then migrated to turkey with the Hittites. Which does not make sense to me because then why is R1b L23 about 20-30% in northeastern Turkey around the Caucus and is over 20% in most of Turkey period and even northern Iraq.

Here is a map made by Maciamo of R1b L23, its son R1b L51, R1b L51's son R1b L11, and R1b L23's other son R1b Z2103. Almost all R1b in the Turkey iraq area is R1b L23 o R1b Z2103.


R1b Z2103 is R1b L51's brother both are sons of R1b L23 i hope that make's sense. In my opinon R1b L23 either came to west Europe with Germanic Italo Celtic languages through Turkey or Ukriane and it would have started around 6,000-5,000ybp. Or it is not Indo European at all but i really doubt that. I dont understand either why Maciamo calls R1b M269 pontic steppe i think it is to fit indo european migrations. Who knows when R1b came to Indo Europeans it could have been very recent. It is true that R1b M73 R1b M269's brother is only around the Stepp'es and spread with Indo Iranian languages so i guess that is evidence r1b has been in that area for a long time.

[Lábaru]

Fire Haired congratulations for your work of data collection and interest, these threads are very interesting.

You has some errors or simply theories that do not seem right(Basque Celtic?), but it is normal.

[Fire Haired]

Fire Haired congratulations for your work of data collection and interest, these threads are very interesting.

You has some errors or simply theories that do not seem right(Basque Celtic?), but it is normal.

since basque have over 80% Y DNA under italo celtic r1b p312 there is no doubt they had italo celtic influnce. Their language family used to be spread out in western france the aquitene who were seen as apart of the celtic world and under hallstat culture. u ca lookup on wikpedia o ancient gaul they mentionthe aquitene and i am pretty sure ceasar labled them as celts but not gauls. he said it was one of the major languages of gaul.

[Peikko]

So how old ethnicity are the Basques?

[Benacer]

since basque have over 80% Y DNA under italo celtic r1b p312 there is no doubt they had italo celtic influnce. Their language family used to be spread out in western france the aquitene who were seen as apart of the celtic world and under hallstat culture. u ca lookup on wikpedia o ancient gaul they mentionthe aquitene and i am pretty sure ceasar labled them as celts but not gauls. he said it was one of the major languages of gaul.

I think it's inconclusive. We have here a haplogroup that is supposedly of Celtic origin and yet peaks at more than 80% presence in two Iberian regions that were never actually in the Celtic sphere.

[Fire Haired]

So how old ethnicity are the Basques?

probably very old. their langauge comes from pre celtic western europeans maybe more from france maybe more from spain. their language i would bet goes back to cardiel neloithic culture. It is amazing their language has survived through so much. people in west europe have always known who the aquitee were the romnas mention them more than once. it just was not untill the 1800's when they started to figure out what indo european languages are. and that almost all europeans spoke a realted langauge they were suprised i guess that basque did not.

[quaquaraqua]

Nice thread.