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Thread: Where did proto Indo Iranian speakers ancestry orignate

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    Veteran Member rashka's Avatar
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    Didn't I just see the last name of the woman as Zorabian in that video?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzar View Post
    I was more or less joking, but yes, my G2a1a is exclusive to the Caucasus, specifically Ossetia where my paternal grandfather is from. That doesn't mean I cannot have be part Siberian AUTOSOMALLY (I am 3%). Y-dna is such a small fraction of your ancestry, I think you pay too much attention to it. For example the majority of Hondurans are R1b despite being 90% Amerindian.



    None at all. Q emerged from the depths of Siberia when the Turko-Mongols burst on the scene. R1a is exclusively Indo-Iranian, all tested I-I remains to date have been R1a.



    Azeris are predominately Caucasus folk with very little Mongoloid genes.

    There was some intermarriage, but mostly ethnic cleansing on a massive scale. There's a reason why in ancient times Iranian people dominated central Asia but now only the high mountains of Tajikistan is where they found safe haven from the genocidal Turkic hordes.

    Stupid pan-Iranist video. Lol at the statement " We don't have any "Aryan" Y-DNA markers in Central Asia today but Western mtDNA is not uncommon". That's a stupid statement because most Turkic people carry Haplogroup R1a

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

    Scythians from Central Asia were anything but pure Iranic. The Saka people from Central Asia were probably a confederation between Turkic and Eastern Iranic nomads. It's not a coincidence that the Saka people "suddenly" disappeared in history after the Gkturks appeared in the 6th century

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    Stupid pan-Iranist video. Lol at the statement " We don't have any "Aryan" Y-DNA markers in Central Asia today but Western mtDNA is not uncommon". That's a stupid statement because most Turkic people carry Haplogroup R1a
    Never mind the video and its flaws, if you are making claims that the Turkic take-over of central Asia was peaceful than you need to take a look at history. We can start with proto-Turkic times when the war-like Xiongnu (Huns?) conquered the peaceful Iranic speaking Yuezhi.



    http://books.google.com/books?id=8FV...page&q&f=false


    Scythians from Central Asia were anything but pure Iranic. The Saka people from Central Asia were probably a confederation between Turkic and Eastern Iranic nomads. It's not a coincidence that the Saka people "suddenly" disappeared in history after the Gkturks appeared in the 6th century
    Though the video I posted may be pan-Iranicist, it's clear you are a pan-Turanist which is not any better. Saka is the Persian equivalent of Skolotoi - the Greek word for Scythians, there's nothing Turkic about it. The Saka people disappeared from history because they either were absorbed by the Gokturks or migrated to Europe under the ethnonym Sauromatian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzar View Post
    Never mind the video and its flaws, if you are making claims that the Turkic take-over of central Asia was peaceful than you need to take a look at history. We can start with proto-Turkic times when the war-like Xiongnu (Huns?) conquered the peaceful Iranic speaking Yuezhi.



    http://books.google.com/books?id=8FV...page&q&f=false




    Though the video I posted may be pan-Iranicist, it's clear you are a pan-Turanist which is not any better. Saka is the Persian equivalent of Skolotoi - the Greek word for Scythians, there's nothing Turkic about it. The Saka people disappeared from history because they either were absorbed by the Gokturks or migrated to Europe under the ethnonym Sauromatian.
    Did you know that Scythians were famous in the antiquity for making skull cups from the enemies just like the Turkics and Mongolics in the middle ages? Herodotus has written so many times about the Scythians but strangely he never mentioned that the Persians and the Scythians spoke similar languages. Not only Herodotus but also other Greek historians in the antiquity have never mentioned about the language similarities between Persians and Scythians. Between 400 CE and the 16th century the Byzantine sources used the name "Scythian" in referance to twelve Turkic peoples. That's not a coincidence. The Persians have also called the Saka people as "those with the pointed hats". Modern Turkic nomads like Kazakhs or Sakhas wear those pointed hats like the Scythians but strangely the assumed descendants of the Scyths the Ossetians wear completely different clothes than their "ancestors"

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OA9fvXlhua...00/kazakhs.jpg
    http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/Firs...um2/img001.jpg
    http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/14705.jpg
    http://en.planetyakutia.com/webroot/...300x200_11.jpg
    http://static.flickr.com/89/232422731_5b7f13e8e5_b.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-An7Y6K4YmS...scythians2.jpg
    http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbvie...onal-dress.jpg
    http://realtruth.org/images/scythian-ashz-120523.jpg
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A...2Bcostume2.jpg
    http://cache.boston.com/universal/si...2_16771099.jpg
    http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI...4149-12925.jpg

    Theophan the Byzantian (5 c.) renders Huns as Scythians. He writes: Meanwhile Scyth Attila, son of Omnudiy, brave and proud man, removed his senior brother Vdela, assumed sole authority over Scythians, which also are named Unns, and attacked Thracia (Theophan the Byzantian, 1884, 81). On the other side, he depicts Trks as Massagets: East from Tanaid live Trks, in antiquity called Massagets. Persians in their language call them Kermikhions (Byzantian Historians. SPb., 1861, 492). In this record of Theophan deserves an attention the fact that he knew well both Massagets (one of the Scythian tribes), and Persians. If Scythians-Massagets spoke Persian, he would inevitably note this detail. But Theophan identifies Massagets with Trks, not with Persians.

    There is a Turkic tribe in Northeastern Russia and those people call themselves SAKHA in their language but The Russians call them "Yakuts" which is false. The Scythians from the Northern Black Sea spoke probably an Eastern Iranic language but the Scythians from Central Asia were probably a mix between Eastern Iranic and Turkic nomads. It's funny that the Iranocentrists from Wikipedia try to tell me that Scythians spoke only one language when Herodotus wrotes 3000 years earlier in his texts that the Scythians spoke DIFFERENT languages. I don't care if Scythians only spoke one Eastern Iranian language because the modern Turkic peoples are definitely CULTURALLY the descendants of Scythians
    Last edited by Sky earth; 08-19-2013 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post


    Genghis Kahn was not red haired and blue eyed. It is true that Indo Iranian speakers who had around 3-15% red hair were one of the bigest ethnic group in all of central asia from 4,000-1,600ybp. Also they did have contact with Mongols, Turks, and other east asian people around China for over 4,000 years. This does not mean everyone who had contact with them in central asia was a redhead. The Indo iranian tribes in asia were eventulley conquered by east asian Turkic and Mongol tribes from 400-1000ad. Today u find almost no redheads or European looking people period in those areas of asia but alot of their R1a1a1b2 Z92 Y DNA is still left. I think u already know Indo Iranian language is still all over the place in pretty much all land from India to Iran and even the kurds a huge ethnic group in Iraq, Turkey, and Syria.

    There is apparently 7% Caucasoid Y-DNA and 14.3% Caucasoid mtDNA in Mongolians.

    But Genghis Khan wasn't white not even mixed but a pure Mongoloid (almost). The problem is not that he had red hair and green eyes but is how some people perceive it as white.

    When in reality he looked like this



    Even his son odagei Khan had blue eyes and reddish beard but he look like a Mongoloid nothing like a caucasian


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    Butlerking what real evidence do u have genghis kahn has red hair and green eyes. Also there was tons of indo Iranian speakers migrations all over asia from 5,000-3,500ybp. 3,400 and 3,000 year old tarium mummies of almost defintley indo Iranians had red hair the sycthians who dominated most of central asia in the iron age were uselly described and blue eyed and red hair or fair haired. the Tocherians aka Yuezhia who lived in west china mainly i think around 500-700ad were described by ancient Chinese writers i saw this on Wikipedia and a documentary as tall, having high noses, red and blonde hair with big beards, and huge blue eyes. The 4,000 year old tarium mummies in west china were very early indo Iranians and their y dna was R1a1a (probably R1a1a1b2 but they did not test that far) and they had mainly Mongliod mtDNA C4 they were a total mix of European and east asia.

    So in south Siberia, west china, and Mongolia there has been inter marriage with very light haired indo Iranians since over 4,000ybp. There is no doubt that is why sometimes east Asian looking people in that area will have blue eyes or other non east asian features. It is true that Monglionan and central Siberian people do have a little European blood more than any other east asians but no way do they have a significant amount of European. Genghis Kahn was probably a typical looking east asian person. And who cares if he did have red hair i guess that is interesting but we know why it is Indo Iranian tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Butlerking what real evidence do u have genghis kahn has red hair and green eyes. Also there was tons of indo Iranian speakers migrations all over asia from 5,000-3,500ybp. 3,400 and 3,000 year old tarium mummies of almost defintley indo Iranians had red hair the sycthians who dominated most of central asia in the iron age were uselly described and blue eyed and red hair or fair haired. the Tocherians aka Yuezhia who lived in west china mainly i think around 500-700ad were described by ancient Chinese writers i saw this on Wikipedia and a documentary as tall, having high noses, red and blonde hair with big beards, and huge blue eyes. The 4,000 year old tarium mummies in west china were very early indo Iranians and their y dna was R1a1a (probably R1a1a1b2 but they did not test that far) and they had mainly Mongliod mtDNA C4 they were a total mix of European and east asia.

    So in south Siberia, west china, and Mongolia there has been inter marriage with very light haired indo Iranians since over 4,000ybp. There is no doubt that is why sometimes east Asian looking people in that area will have blue eyes or other non east asian features. It is true that Monglionan and central Siberian people do have a little European blood more than any other east asians but no way do they have a significant amount of European. Genghis Kahn was probably a typical looking east asian person. And who cares if he did have red hair i guess that is interesting but we know why it is Indo Iranian tribes.
    Because there are red hair and blue eyes Mongolians today and persian historian mentioned Genghis Khan ancestor had red hair.


    These Tocharian tribes did not live in China historically, their territory was only incorporated in 1949.


    This is original territory of Chinese




    This is them conquered by Chinese during Tang dynasty


    This is China today


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    The Tocherians aka Yuezhia were not conquered by Chinses they were conquered by a Turkic tribe named Ughur around 600-700ad. I think u need to remeber a phrase like German or Chinese do not repsent race they repsent mainly a language. So just because Chinese did not arrive in modern western China does not mean Mongliod have been in west china tarium basin area for only that long. Modern day Ughur do have many light haired Indo Iranian type features and according to aust DNA have alot of European and middle eastern blood. They are extremely diverse and mixed and not Chinese. There were no Tocherians in 1949 the ethnic group was extremneted sure some of ther blood lines still existed but not themselves as a tribe and language.

    Red hair itself is extremley rare so i doubt there are alot. It makes total sense there are blonde haired or any other type of non Mongliod feature in Mongols who's ancestors had contact and inter marraige with people like Tocherians and Sycthians for over 4,000 years. Whne u mix of European and east asian genes for that long stuff like that happens.

    Here is a example of a Ughur with mixed European and east asian features





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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    Did you know that Scythians were famous in the antiquity for making skull cups from the enemies just like the Turkics and Mongolics in the middle ages?
    I'm well aware. It is a steppe custom originally started by Indo-European migrants from the west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    Between 400 CE and the 16th century the Byzantine sources used the name "Scythian" in referance to twelve Turkic peoples. That's not a coincidence.
    Scythian became an umbrella term for all nomads north-east of the Danube delta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    The Persians have also called the Saka people as "those with the pointed hats". Modern Turkic nomads like Kazakhs or Sakhas wear those pointed hats like the Scythians
    The Turks stole the hats for themselves just as they stole horse riding, ditched their hunter-gatherer lifestyle for a nomadic pastoralist one and picked up horse archery. TURKS DID NOT COME UP WITH THESE THINGS ON THEIR OWN BUT ADOPTED IT FROM INDO-EUROPEAN MIGRANTS FROM THE WEST.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    but strangely the assumed descendants of the Scyths the Ossetians wear completely different clothes than their "ancestors"
    Oh yeah?

    Bashlyk - round-topped felt bonnet, with lappets. Was popular among the Cossacks and in the Caucasus. The prototypes of bashlyk can be seen on the decoration of the Scythian vases.
    http://www.cossackweb.narod.ru/cossacks/dict.htm



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashlyk


    . I don't care if Scythians only spoke one Eastern Iranian language because the modern Turkic peoples are definitely CULTURALLY the descendants of Scythians
    Modern Turkic people only hijacked Scythian culture and way of life. Every accomplishment Turks ever achieved is the credit of the technology brought by Indo-Europeans from the west. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is convinced about Pan-Turkicist fantasies, I've already been through this with Kipchak_Hakan and Siberian Cold Breeze, who couldn't accept the fact that their ancestors were genocidal maniacs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzar View Post
    I'm well aware. It is a steppe custom originally started by Indo-European migrants from the west.



    Scythian became an umbrella term for all nomads north-east of the Danube delta.



    The Turks stole the hats for themselves just as they stole horse riding, ditched their hunter-gatherer lifestyle for a nomadic pastoralist one and picked up horse archery. TURKS DID NOT COME UP WITH THESE THINGS ON THEIR OWN BUT ADOPTED IT FROM INDO-EUROPEAN MIGRANTS FROM THE WEST.



    Oh yeah?



    http://www.cossackweb.narod.ru/cossacks/dict.htm



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashlyk




    Modern Turkic people only hijacked Scythian culture and way of life. Every accomplishment Turks ever achieved is the credit of the technology brought by Indo-Europeans from the west. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is convinced about Pan-Turkicist fantasies, I've already been through this with Kipchak_Hakan and Siberian Cold Breeze, who couldn't accept the fact that their ancestors were genocidal maniacs.
    All those Indo-European centrists come with the same bullshit everyday. You stole this and this from the Scythians blah blah blah. You are too silly to search for other sources than Wikipedia about the Scythians but you can believe in your pure Iranic Scythians bullshit written by butthurt Iranocentrists from Wikipedia. Ossetians are mainly native Caucasian and their language has over 50 % non Indo-European Caucasian words and the men carry mostly Haplogroup G2 (80-90% of the men). You can find your mighty "AR1an" Haplogroups in most Turkic peoples like Altaians or Khotons

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

    Most Kurgan burials from ancient Central Asian steppe nomads show also predominantly R1a men with Mongoloid admixed women on the maternal side just like most Turkic peoples today. The Pazyryk culture is a hot candidate for Proto-Turks.

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=25hirzk&s=6
    http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/11/...ryk-mtdna.html

    Even if you're right and the Saka people have only spoken an Eastern Iranian language. It's not my fault that the Eastern Iranics were too stupid for the retention of their language and rather adopted Turkic languages after a while. Or what do you will tell me? That evil Turco-Mongol women raped Iranic Scythian men and created modern Turkic peoples? Lol

    You are even too stupid to notice that Bashlyk is actually a Turkic word and that it is worn by Turkic peoples and Cossacks, who were mostly East Slavic people, who adopted the military skills of steppe nomads like Tatars or Mongols. No words about the Caucasian Ossetians in this article.

    Spaniards like you should be the LAST ethnicity to blame other peoples for mass genocides. I think it's well known what your ancestors did to Native Americans and ESPECIALLY to Native American women in Southern America. The results today are race confused Mestizos and Mulattos like Mexicans and Cubans.
    Last edited by Sky earth; 08-19-2013 at 07:08 AM.

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