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Were the Ancient Macedonians the same as ancient Greeks. - Page 3

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Thread: Were the Ancient Macedonians the same as ancient Greeks.

  1. #21
    Son of Arvanon Scholarios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    Actually the Greeks barely saw any fighting within the Macedonian army, since they were more busy with logistics - a gigantic task in its' own right - and the Greek mercenaries serving in the Persian army outnumbered the Greeks serving in the Macedonian army.

    Of course a silly Bosnian famous for making things out of his arse cannot be expected to know a thing about his own history, even less about events that took place more than 2.000 years ago...
    I know... it truly is amazing the things you can read on these boards. "Alexander put more Greeks in his front lines so they'd die more". Amazing. And this will get picked up by Risto the Great and be on United Macedonians Forum soon.

    In fact, Alexander was less likely to trust all of his allies, except the Thessalians and the Agrianes who were main contingents of the Macedonian Army. He certainly wouldn't want unreliable allies going up in the front lines to desert in a pitched battle.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    quote sources because 98% of your posts are inaccuracies and pure crap
    Its common knowledge that mercenaries from the Greek cities outnumbered Greek city state allies in Alexander's Army. Alexander took I believe 7000 Greek allies from the South. I believe Memnon of Rhodes commanded at least 20,000 Hoplites against Alexander. This is all in Arrian I believe. Very very basic stuff.

    When the armies of Alexander of Macedon and Darius of Persia met at the Battle of Issus in 333, Alexander controlled nearly every Greek state in and around the Aegean. Yet, according to the figures provided by our sources, more Greeks fought for Persia than for Macedon at Issus (Arrian 2.8.6; Quintus Curitus 3.2.9; Diodorus 17.17.4). The significant Greek mercenary presence in Darius’ army has been explained as a matter of Darius’ need for superior Greek soldiers and his unmatched ability to pay them. In this view, the Greek involvement on the Persian side reveals how divorced the motivations and allegiances of the Greek mercenaries were from the political alliances and orientations of their home poleis (Parke 177-84; Seibt 110-114; Trundle 143-46, but see also 159-164).
    To the contrary, I argue that Greek mercenary service in the Near East was most often politically motivated and that the Greek contingent in Darius III’s army was provided in large part by Athens. Despite her official alliance with Alexander as part of the League of Corinth, Athens covertly sought to undermine Macedonian power in Greece by providing mercenary soldiers to Persia. The Athenian participation at Issus is one example of politically motivated Greek mercenary service in the fourth century Near East, which heretofore has been unacknowledged or underestimated in much of the relevant scholarship.


    THE ATHENIAN MERCENARIES OF DARIUS III
    JEFFREY ROP

    http://apaclassics.org/index.php/ann...acts/48.1.rop/

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis View Post
    Its common knowledge that mercenaries from the Greek cities outnumbered Greek city state allies in Alexander's Army. Alexander took I believe 7000 Greek allies from the South. I believe Memnon of Rhodes commanded at least 20,000 Hoplites against Alexander. This is all in Arrian I believe. Very very basic stuff.
    Still no sources

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    What I mean is were they related by blood or Maybe the Macedonians were influenced by the Greeks and adopted their language, traditions, culture, and became assimilated. In my world history course i asked my teacher if they were the same people like spartans and athenians he said no. What do you guys think?
    Your teacher was correct to tell you that the Macedonians were different from the Spartans (chic!) and the Athenians, yet he eloquently avoided to answer whether they were Ancient Greeks or not. Clever man, he must have known that the real question is who the Greeks really were, not who the Macedonians were. There are many different interpretations of the Ancient Greek: Ethnic, political, even religious one can add. The Ancient Greeks themselves left the question unanswered because they never created a single state of their own, and competing states had different definitions of who was Greek and who was not (according primarily upon their own interests).

    The discussion gets even more complex if you consider that the Macedonians themselves were certainly not a homogeneous group either. You'd have to start evaluating who was an ethnic Macedonian (or perhaps tribal Macedonian) and who was a citizen of Macedonia (two DIFFERENT groups altogether) BEFORE you arrive to any safe conclusions.

    Long before you start debating those issues with your teacher (or with anybody) you should make a litmus test upon the "educated" person opposite you. You should ask him, if the Spartans were indeed Spartans, why did they have those shields?



    If they were indeed Spartans, then they carried the wrong motif upon their shields... Maybe this one would have been more appropriate:


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    I thought Alexander was a Macedonian. The fact he spoke greek don't mean shit. It was the lingua franca at the time.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
    I thought Alexander was a Macedonian. The fact he spoke greek don't mean shit. It was the lingua franca at the time.
    The Macedonians were Greeks.
    I Praise the Gods because I was Born Greek
    -Alexander the Great.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    Still no sources
    you clicked too soon. rewind.


    When the armies of Alexander of Macedon and Darius of Persia met at the Battle of Issus in 333, Alexander controlled nearly every Greek state in and around the Aegean. Yet, according to the figures provided by our sources, more Greeks fought for Persia than for Macedon at Issus (Arrian 2.8.6; Quintus Curitus 3.2.9; Diodorus 17.17.4). The significant Greek mercenary presence in Darius’ army has been explained as a matter of Darius’ need for superior Greek soldiers and his unmatched ability to pay them. In this view, the Greek involvement on the Persian side reveals how divorced the motivations and allegiances of the Greek mercenaries were from the political alliances and orientations of their home poleis (Parke 177-84; Seibt 110-114; Trundle 143-46, but see also 159-164).
    To the contrary, I argue that Greek mercenary service in the Near East was most often politically motivated and that the Greek contingent in Darius III’s army was provided in large part by Athens. Despite her official alliance with Alexander as part of the League of Corinth, Athens covertly sought to undermine Macedonian power in Greece by providing mercenary soldiers to Persia. The Athenian participation at Issus is one example of politically motivated Greek mercenary service in the fourth century Near East, which heretofore has been unacknowledged or underestimated in much of the relevant scholarship.

    THE ATHENIAN MERCENARIES OF DARIUS III
    JEFFREY ROP

    http://apaclassics.org/index.php/ann...acts/48.1.rop/

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    quote sources because 98% of your posts are inaccuracies and pure crap
    I don't need to quote sources to dispute you. The 98% of the Apricity folks would trust something written by me without any reference than you by whatever reference you chose to cite.

    Anyway:

    http://history-of-macedonia.com/2007...-in-antiquity/

    MACEDONIA ERA AND GREEK MERCENARIES
    Philip and Alexander both employed mercenary forces. Given the greater wealth that Macedonia could call upon after its gaining control of the gold and silver mines in the area of Mount Pangaeum and the lower Strymon, Philip had the resources to employ them on a much larger scale than other powers. Some of the sources give the impression that Philip used them frequently, but his operations are so ill-documented that it is hard to assess their importance. Apparently he increased their numbers after the mid-340s when he began to have access to Greek sources.
    They were used for three types of duty. Firstly, they manned expeditions designed for limited and definite objectives such as the Euboean expedition of 342/341 or in the formation of a bridgehead in northwestern Asia Minor against the Persians in 336; they usually served in detachments of 2000 to 3000, though on one occasion a force of 10000 is mentioned. Secondly, mercenaries were used as permanent garrisons at important points, as at Thermopylae. Thirdly, they were hired for special skills such as the Cretans who were hired for their expertise in archery. Their role was to be more important under Alexander. In the initial invasion of Persia approximately five thousand mercenary infantry were employed.


    Philip II came to the throne of the growing power of Macedon in 359 BC. Philip was the only victor of the Third Sacred War against Phocis, despite the coalition of states, including Thebes, that formed the alliance to defend the shrine of Delphi. Philip’s victory in the Third Sacred War facilitated his entry into the affairs of central Greece. The rise of Macedon provided another region of employment for Greeks abroad. Philip had ample resources to pay soldiers who were Macedonians and to buy the aid of foreigners. Philip’s army was the tool with which his son Alexander conquered Persia. Macedon was not the first among Greek mainland states to have a standing and professional army. Argos maintained a chosen group of soldiers called the logades in the 5th century (Thuc. 5.67.2). The Arcadians had established a core of trained and maintained troops, called the eparitoi, at the inception of the Arcadian confederacy in 369 BC, and Elis had also employed such specialists (Xen. Hell. 7.4.13, 4.34). Thebes had a similar group of men in their 300-strong Sacred Band. Even Athens maintained a picked body of chosen men, the epilektoi (Plut. Phoc. 13.2-3; Aisch. 2.169), and invested its resources in the ephębeia, a group of trained young adult aristocratic but citizen soldiers. All these might loosely be termed professional military organizations in the fourth century BC. However, Philip’s army became both professional and national. It was these professionals who decisively defeated the amateur citizen-hoplites of Athens and Thebes at the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC. This victory allowed Philip to dominate the Greek cities of the mainland. The professional soldier had progressively become more common on mainland Greece in the fourth century and, eventually, although citizen militias still appear in Polybius’ histories of the third century BC, he supplanted the amateur farmer-hoplite on the stage of Hellenistic warfare.
    Philip’s son and successor Alexander III , conquered the Persian Empire in less than a decade. He used many Greek mercenaries in the process, and his adversary, the Great King Darius III, employed as many as 50,000 such men to oppose him. Alexander’s army was, essentially, professional. It left the Aegean basin in 334 BC, and ten years later very few of those men returned to their homes. When Alexander died in 323 BC, the Greek world had changed forever, and the Hellenistic period (323-30 BC) had replaced the Classical period just as a Greco-Macedonian empire had replaced the Persian.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
    I thought Alexander was a Macedonian. The fact he spoke greek don't mean shit. It was the lingua franca at the time.
    Some stupid Turks just have to show up and say their ridiculous opinions, can't help it, can we?

    Yes, Alexander was Macedonian, nobody disputes that (Actually I do and I can prove my point by 3/4, but we are not arguing ethnicity or genealogy but politics).

    The question is whether the Macedonians themselves were Greeks. Got it gook?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
    I thought Alexander was a Macedonian. The fact he spoke greek don't mean shit. It was the lingua franca at the time.
    So is English now.
    You have ONLY English names, ONLY English named-places and you ONLY speak English?
    Quote Originally Posted by peaceandfriendship View Post
    BTW - you having a picture of Pyrrhus as your avatar is the Albanian equivalent of Michael Jackson bleaching his skin white.

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