''The Balts and the Finns in historical perspective: a multidisciplinary approach''

[sevruk]

Estonians
Code:
[1,] "Estonian" "0"
[2,] "Latvian" "5.4461"
[3,] "Russian" "6.729"
[4,] "Belarusian" "7.2007"
[5,] "Russian_Center" "8.2341"
[6,] "Lithuanian" "9.3718"
[7,] "Polish" "9.8438"
[8,] "Russian_South" "11.8288"
[9,] "Russian_cossack" "12.2552"
[10,] "Ukrainian" "12.6131"
[11,] "Ukrainian-East" "12.8752"
[12,] "Russian_North" "13.1008"
[13,] "Sorb" "14.7136"
[14,] "Mordovian" "14.9416"
[15,] "Ukrainian-Center" "15.9621"
[16,] "Ukrainian-West" "18.2866"
[17,] "Vepsa" "22.0372"
[18,] "Karelian" "22.1937"
[19,] "Inkeri" "22.5087"
[20,] "Slovakian" "22.8484"
[21,] "Finnish" "24.2448"
[22,] "Czech" "24.9682"

I see Karl butthurt, lol

[Peikko]

Also, I gather that you are not a fan of baltic-finnic folklore, Kalevala - Kalevipoeg, runo-regivärss, etc.

Estonians just copied Kalevala from Finns, just like the national anthem.

Also, the only ethnic groups around the Baltic Sea with no history of violence and wars between themselves are estonians and finns (coastal finns mostly, since estonians did not wander far inland).

There have been conflicts among different finns, and between finns and karelians, between finns and swedes, between finns and saamis, between estonians and swedes, among swedes, between estonians and danes, etc., etc. But not between estonians and finns. Think about it.

There's never been a conflict between Finns and Balts either. Think about it.

[Permafrost]

According to Karl, Balts are fond of driving Estonian cars (as in cars bought by Estonians, not made by them)

This may be a big connection.

[Hercus Monte]

According to Karl, Balts are fond of driving Estonian cars (as in cars bought by Estonians, not made by them)

This may be a big connection.

yes, an Estonian Volkswagen is much better than a Lithuanian Volkswagen

[Peikko]

But to be honest, I think Temujins results are bollocks. How can Tartars or Ukrainians be closer to Finns, than Estonians? Or Slovakians closer to Estonians, than Finns?

[Peikko]

Is this tree accurate?

Since when are Hungarians Turkic (N-L1034)?

I think we need to take Temujin's posts with grain of salt.

[Temujin]

But to be honest, I think Temujins results are bollocks. How can Tartars or Ukrainians be closer to Finns, than Estonians? Or Slovakians closer to Estonians, than Finns?

The output was taken from MDLP World 22 calculator.

The population dataset used in MDLP World22 calculator: http://magnusducatus.blogspot.com/20...-showcase.html


=============================


This is a formal study. In the table of Fst statistics (Diagram 2) : Estonians are closer to Czechs (Fst=0.002) than to Veps (Fst=0.006). Czech and Slovaks are genetically similar. Estonians are even more closer to Russians from Kursk (Fst=0.001). Kursk is near the border of eastern Ukraine which would be similar to eastern Ukraine. The Fst for Estonians and Finns from Helsinki is 0.006. Estonians are genetically closer to Czechs than to Finns from Helsinki according the results of this study.


But if anyone has any formal or quality informal study showing that Estonians are genetically more similar to Finnic speaking populations, then please share.

===============================


Title: A Genome-Wide Analysis of Populations from European Russia Reveals a New Pole of Genetic Diversity in Northern Europe, Khrunin AV, Khokhrin DV, Filippova IN, Esko T, Nelis M, et al. (2013)
Full Text: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...entation=PNG_M


Abstract

Several studies examined the fine-scale structure of human genetic variation in Europe. However, the European sets analyzed represent mainly northern, western, central, and southern Europe. Here, we report an analysis of approximately 166,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms in populations from eastern (northeastern) Europe: four Russian populations from European Russia, and three populations from the northernmost Finno-Ugric ethnicities (Veps and two contrast groups of Komi people). These were compared with several reference European samples, including Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs, Germans, and Italians. The results obtained demonstrated genetic heterogeneity of populations living in the region studied. Russians from the central part of European Russia (Tver, Murom, and Kursk) exhibited similarities with populations from central–eastern Europe, and were distant from Russian sample from the northern Russia (Mezen district, Archangelsk region). Komi samples, especially Izhemski Komi, were significantly different from all other populations studied. These can be considered as a second pole of genetic diversity in northern Europe (in addition to the pole, occupied by Finns), as they had a distinct ancestry component. Russians from Mezen and the Finnic-speaking Veps were positioned between the two poles, but differed from each other in the proportions of Komi and Finnic ancestries. In general, our data provides a more complete genetic map of Europe accounting for the diversity in its most eastern (northeastern) populations.



Populations

Four Russian populations (Tver, Murom, Kursk, Mezen district, Archangel oblast'), Finns (samples from Helsinki (n = 100) and Kuusamo (n = 84), Estonians (n = 100), Latvians (n = 95), Poles (n = 48), Czechs (n = 94), and Germans (n = 100). In addition, we used free genotype data from the HapMap 3 project (Italians from Tuscany (n = 88) and Han Chinese from Beijing (n = 78) and as well as from the human genome diversity panel HGDP, Russians (n = 25)






Diagram 1 Principal component analysis of the combined autosomal genotypic data of individuals from Russia and seven European countries (Finnland, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Germany and Italy.







Diagram 2

[Temujin]

Is this tree accurate?

Since when are Hungarians Turkic (N-L1034)?

I think we need to take Temujin's posts with grain of salt.

Any names could have been given to the branches. The names themselves don't matter. What is important is that different ethnicities have their own groups of N1c1 separated by several thousands of years. The diagram was taken from this article: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

[Peikko]

Any names could have been given to the branches. The names themselves don't matter. What is important is that different ethnicities have their own groups of N1c1. The diagram was taken from this article: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

Okay, it seems that the author wants to use "Turkic" for that branch:

Of the descendants of the East European group (in the 1b area), the Turkic group could have been born in the
eastern end of the Pit-Comb Ware area – it spread to the east, behind the Urals and back to Asia, where it
developed into the Turkic group

[Peikko]

Hmmm... What do you think of this Temujin?

It must be emphasized that there is no more reason to connect the Comb Ceramic Culture to the spread
of the Uralic languages, but it still can be connected to the spread of N1c1 to the Baltic Sea region. No earlier
than one millennium later the Corded Ware Culture spread to Baltia, Southwest Finland and Southern Sweden, supposedly spreading the Northwest Indo-European dialect. Only after this wave the N1c1 men of the
area (as well as those of any other haplogroup) could have begun to speak an Indo-European language. Yet it
is possible that the North European group of N1c1 participated also in the Corded Ware expansion from Poland to the more northern areas, even though the main bulk of the Corded Ware men seem to have been
R1a1.