Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (R1a1a1 M417, R1b1a2a1 L51) (R1b1a2a L23?, R1b1a1 M73?, Etc?)

[Fire Haired]

Archaeology and common Y DNA in modern Indo European speakers which age estimates show migrations starting in certain areas 7,000-5,000ybp. Show that Indo European languages most likely started, or took off and spread from these areas.



I probably went to south on the map because that is were R1b1a2a L23 proto Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 father is most popular and may have originated. Traditionally in the Kurgan theory proto Indo European languages began around Bug Dniester culture in Ukraine about 7,000ybp and in Yamna culture in Russia and Dnieper Donets Ukraine starting about 5,600ybp. Since there are 6,000 year old Kurgans in both southeast Poland and Caucus that kind of extends were very very early Indo Europeans were to the Caucus and north mid east and deeper in Europe.

So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. Since about 30-50% Balto Slavic speakers have R1a1a1b1 Z283 and anywhere from 10-40% Indo Iranian speakers have R1a1a1b2 Z93. The age estimates for them and their father R1a1a1b point to bronze age migrations from 6,000-4,000ybp.

Also Y DNA from supposedly proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware two from 4,800ybp in Poland were G and I or J and two from 4,600ybp in central Germany were at least R1a1a M17. Seven Y DNA samples from 4,000 year old Tarim mummies in west China who were suspected to be connected with early Indo Iranian speakers all were at least R1a1a M17. Four 3,800-3,400 year old Y DNA samples from supposedly early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in central Siberia three had at least R1a1a M17 and one had C probably from Mongoloid Siberians.

So Y DNA from cultures the Kurgan theory say were early Indo Iranian or early Balto Slavic speakers all back up the idea that R1a1a1 M417 is a early early Indo European Y DNA haplogroup from the Ukraine-Russia Bug Dniester-Yamna cultures. There is also a western European branch most likely from Germanic Italo Celts R1a1a1a L664. The proto Germanic Italo Celts were dominated by R1b1a2a L23 then R1b1a2a1 L51 but they probably picked up some R1a1a1 M417 since they were so close to other Indo Europeans in Russia Ukraine area 5,000-6,000ybp. So it seems they then formed their own branch. So the common ancestor of all those Indo European R1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.


The other just about for sure Y DNA that spread with Indo European languages is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51. R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celtc: Ruler and Conquers of Bronze-Iron age west Europe. What is weird is unlike R1a1a1 M417 which shows its origin in the traditional areas by the kurgan theory to be the Indo European homeland. R1b1a2a1 L51 father's seems to be from the middle east around Iraq, Anatolia, and the Caucus. It's father R1b1a2a L23 is centered in those areas and popular in the Balkans in southeastern Europe. I could not find any other info about the origin of R1b1a2a L23 but from what I have seen people say it comes from a migration out of the middle east.

Since there is a 6,000 year old Kurgan in the Caucus and Maykop culture (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Caucus and north eastern Anatolia. Shows very early Indo Europeans were in that area which could be were this R1b is from. And that those people had constant trade and contact with the Bug Dniester - Yamna people in Russia and Ukraine. I don't really know but since Germanic Italo Celt father R1b1a2a L23 is so popular even as south as Iraq makes me think that possibly Maykop had a origin around there and maybe proto Indo European or proto proto Indo European languages originated around that area.

R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a Indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23. I think most is not Indo European. R1b1a2a2 Z2103 might be connected with Anatolian, Greek, and Indo European languages around the Balkans like Thracian-Dacian and Illyrian. Also R1b M73 shows connection of spreading with Indo Iranian languages but probably did not originate with Indo European speakers like R1a1a1 M417 and R1b1a2a1 L51 probably did.


Eupedia migration map of R1b. I dis agree with R1b1a2 M269 originating in Europe. I think R1b made the same type of migration out of the mid east to Europe but as R1b1a2a L23.


Here is a map of R1a in Europe. Almost all is under Indo European R1a1a1 M417. The vast majority is under Balto Slavic Corded ware culture R1a1a1b1 Z283.

Here is a total map of R1a. Seems like who ever made this had less info than Eupedia. Almost all is under Indo European r1a1a1 M416 i already explained in Europe for Asia and parts of north eastern Europe it is just about 100% Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93.


Map of R1b in Europe. Almost all is under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 except in the mid east, southeastern Europe, and Mediterranean were this is some R1b1a2a L23.


Map of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312.


Map of Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106.


U can see by these maps Indo European Y DNA is extremely popular. The reason is Indo Europeans spread their language, culture, and religion almost only by conquest. So the native men were killed way more than the native women because they fought in wars and were seen as a threat. Also when Indo Europeans won they could force as many native women to be their wives. So they had way more offspring with the native women than Indo European women had with native men and in pretty much all cultures women are only allowed to have one husband while in some and alot of ancient ones men could have about as many wives and mistresses as they wanted. High ranking people and Chiefs sometimes had over 1,000 women. So this lead to Indo European speaking people direct male lineage to be heavily Indo European.

Indo European speaking people dont mainly descend from the first people to speak their language almost all mainly descend from people who lived in that area before their language spread, Except for maybe people in the British isles.

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So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. Since about 30-50% Balto Slavic speakers have R1a1a1b1 Z283 and anywhere from 10-40% Indo Iranian speakers have R1a1a1b2 Z93. The age estimates for them and their father R1a1a1b point to bronze age migrations from 6,000-4,000ybp.

How much R1a is found in Armenians, ancient Latiums, ancient Mycenaan Greeks ancient Albanians, Celts, all considered as Indo-European speakers? 2%-5% ?

So the common ancestor of all those Indo European r1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

Look at the placement of R1b1* which is 2 steps above L23, that is Mede, Gilaki/Talysh/Lur, in other words, ancient Iranian territory, bordering Iran/Iraq/Caucasus, and where R1b L23 is found.Hardly any R1a is found in Northwest Iran and Armenia when compared to R1b, why is that significant?
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R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23.

The original source for different words used to call the Median people, their language and homeland is a directly transmitted Old Iranian geographical name which is attested as the Old Persian "Māda-" (sing. masc.).[17] The meaning of this word is not precisely established.[17][18] The linguist W. Skalmowski proposes a relation with the proto-Indoeuropean word "med(h)-" meaning "central, suited in the middle" by referring to Old Indic "madhya-" and Old Iranian "maidiia-" both carrying the same meaning[17] and having descendants including Latin medium, Greek méso, and German mittel.

In the sources from Achaemenid Iran and specifically from the Behistun Inscription (2.76, 77-78) the capital of Media is named as "Hamgmatāna-" in Old Persian (and as Elamite "Agmadana-", Babylonian "Agamtanu-", etc.). The classical authors transmitted this as Ecbatana. This site is the modern Hamadan province.[24]

[Fire Haired]

How much R1a is found in Armenians, ancient Latiums, ancient Mycenaan Greeks ancient Albanians, Celts, all considered as Indo-European speakers? 2%-5% ?

Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a1a1 M417. Germanic Italo Celtic languages which include Celts spread with almost only R1b1a2a1 L51 then it formed into R1b1a2a1a then Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312 and Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106. click here for my opinon on how Germanic Italo Celts spread acroos western Europe and southern Scandinavia starting 5,000ybp. click here for a super detailed explanation from an expert.

For Greeks and all those other Indo European people it is a more complicated story. The spread of Germanic Italo Celtic, Indo Iranian, and Balto Slavic languages has pretty much been figured out with Archeiology and Y DNA. But all the others are still king of mystery's the R1a1a1 that does exist in those people defintley has some type of Indo European origin but maybe from another group of Indo Europeans.

Look at the placement of R1b1* which is 2 steps above L23, that is Mede, Gilaki/Talysh/Lur, in other words, ancient Iranian territory, bordering Iran/Iraq/Caucasus, and where R1b L23 is found.Hardly any R1a is found in Northwest Iran and Armenia when compared to R1b, why is that significant?

R1b1 is pre pre Indo European probably Paleoithic so from over 10,000ybp. So what at some point it's decendant R1b1a2a1 L51 had something to do with Indo Europeans. Also the ethnic groups of Iranians, Iraqis, or whatever had not formed yet sure everyones bloodline goes back to the begging of time but a ethnic group is different. The only for sure Indo European branch of r1b is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 its father R1b1a2a probably has something to do with Indo Europeans and might be connected with Greek, Antolian, Thracen-Dacen, and Iyrillan Indo European languages in southeastern Europe and Antolia and also maybe Armenian.
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[QUOTE=Silesian;1872538]The original source for different words used to call the Median people, their language and homeland is a directly transmitted Old Iranian geographical name which is attested as the Old Persian "Māda-" (sing. masc.).[17] The meaning of this word is not precisely established.[17][18] The linguist W. Skalmowski proposes a relation with the proto-Indoeuropean word "med(h)-" meaning "central, suited in the middle" by referring to Old Indic "madhya-" and Old Iranian "maidiia-" both carrying the same meaning[17] and having descendants including Latin medium, Greek méso, and German mittel.






The medeian people are Indo Iranian speakers. proto Indo Iranian languages would have spread first out of northern Russia to central asia with Abashevo and Sinshta cultures 5,000-4,500ybp. They are dominated by R1a1a1b2 Z93 so they group with the Dniper Donets- Yamna Russia-Ukriane R1a1a1 M417 Indo Europeans like Balto Slavs. Which makes me think maybe Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages form their own branch. Soall the R1b they picked up besides R1b1a1 M73 they got from inter marring with people lter own. Indo Iranian languages did not reach Iran till about 3,500ybp the people that did decended from Adronovo culture same culture the Sycthians who dominated central asia mainly around the Caspien sea came out of. Medes were a western migration out of Indo Iranians who already were in Iran so they are a kind of recent group of Indo Europeans in that area around 3,000-3,500 years I guess that is not that recent.

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Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a1a1 M417.

Okay lets reason on this. Where do you place PIE ?

[Fire Haired]

Okay lets reason on this. Where do you place PIE ?

What i showed on the map. Dneiper Donets Ukriane to southern Russia, Caucus, and northern Antolia and possibly as south as Iraq. The R1a1a1 M417 spread with Indo European languages comes from the Dneiper Donets Yamna Ukriane Russia world. So Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic language defintley came from that area. Also in the Kurgen theory that is were Indo European language are suppose to have begun around 8,000-6,000ybp so Russia and Ukraine and defintley very very early Indo european areas possibly proto Indo European languages began.

But there are 6,000 year old Kurgen burails in southeast Poland (Near Ukriane) and Caucus. Also the Maykop culture (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Cauus areas also had Kurgen burails, wheel's, and domesticated horses they defintley in my opinon were Indo Europeans. And the Caucus had very early Indo European things happened over 6,000ybp like Russia and Ukriane. And since Germanic Italo Celts R1b1a2a1 L51 father R1b1a2a L23 is centered around the North mid east and Iraq it;s source could be those north mid eastern and caucus Indo European people. So proto Indo European language and very very early Indo European stuff so 8,000-5,500ybp seems to all be around Ukriane, Russia, Caucus, and north mid east.

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What i showed on the map. Dneiper Donets Ukriane to southern Russia,

Perfect. So you are in agreement with this video @ 3:45 J.P Mallory sais he has complete distrust for genetic evidence but goes on to cite it in his work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI

Are you generally in agreement with these theories as being close to your own?

In a very simple and basic theory this diagram would be something similar to what your ideas reflect about R1a and the spread of Proto Indo European languages?

[Fire Haired]

That map in my opinon since it was made before the genetic stuff was figured out has alot of errors. They show Italic, Celtic, and Germanic languages migrating seperatly. Even though it is official that Italic and Celtic languges go back to a common ancestor. Also Now we knwo the signature lineage of Germanic languages R1b S21/U106 goes back to the same father as the signature Italo Celtic lineage R1b S116/P312 which connects the two languages.

They dont show any migration for balto Slavic languages which now we know come from Corded ware culture and their signature Y DNA is R1a1a1b2 Z283, Y DNA samples form Corded ware culture, and age estimates totally back that up. The migrations it shows for Indo Iranian languages i guess i agree it basicalley shows the same thing as Eupedia's Indo European R1a1a1 M417 migration map. Except i dont think they realize that Indo Iranian languages used to be spoke all over central asia even in central Siberia and west China as far back as 4,000ybp. For the Hittites and Greeks i guess that is pretty much the only way they could have migrated but they dont really show anything for Thracen-Dacens, and Iyraliians.

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That map in my opinon since it was made before the genetic stuff was figured out has alot of errors. They show Italic, Celtic, and Germanic languages migrating seperatly. Even though it is official that Italic and Celtic languges go back to a common ancestor.

The one arrow depicted in the diagram showing a migration going down from the center through the Caucasus. Which branch of R1a spread Digor language and which branch spread Armenian R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
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Would you expect to see a lot of R1a among the Indo European speaking Alans-Ossets of Digor if your heimat is correct?
There is not 1 in this project? But if we could find one, which branch should it belong to R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

What about the Indo-European speaking Armenians, would you expect to see a fair amount of R1a among them, either R1a Z93 or R1a Z283?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
4 samples of Z283 from Turkey and 9 R-Z93, are these the remnants of the migration that spread the Indo-European language to the Armenians, but cannot be found in the Ossets of Digor who are within distance of the proposed P.I.E heimat? Or do you have another branch of R1a in mind?

[Fire Haired]

Since Digor is a sub branch of Ossetian which is a sub branch of Sycthian which is a sub branch of Indo Iranian. Their R1a branch is Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93. I would except to see at least some R1a1a1b2 Z93 in Digor's. But since remains of early Indo Iranians including Scythian's had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and also early Indo Iranians would have had aloso had alot of red hair click here. and that Ossetians dont have either of these features and that Sycthians were nearly killed off from 2,000-1,000ybp. Maybe their language survived but not their blood so i would also not be suprised of they have very little R1a1a1b2 Z93.

I dont know if Armenian has a R1a group R1a1a1b1 Z283 is Balto Slavic R1a1a1b2 Z93 is Indo Iranian and it seems very very little R1a1a1a L664 spread with Germanic languages but very little.

The 4 R1a Z283 and 9 R1a Z93 in Turkey can defintley be explained by inter marriage with eastern Europeans and Indo Iranian speakers in Turkey and around Turkey like Kurds. It seems like R1a Z283 is only Balto Slavic and R1a Z93 is only Indo Iranian. clcik here according to this it is common to find eastern European R1a that is ancestral to INdo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 meaning R1a1a1b and R1a1a1 M417 are still found in eastern Europe today pretty commonly. It also said R1a1a M17 most likley place of origin is Ukriane.

Not all Indo European languages spread with R1a or mainly R1a.

[Sikeliot]

R1 would have branched off into R1a and R1b, and both were likely carried by Indo-Europeans. But we have to remember that Indo-European migrants would have been a minority of the populations they conquered and brought their languages to.