Nordic elements in Sicily: How much of it is Norman, how much is ancient Italic Indo-European?

[Vesuvian Sky]

That is probable. However, we'd have to see if genetically they score more Northern components and as far as I have seen, they do but only 3-4% more which would not affect looks.

I think its not so much a matter of percentage of admixture per se, but whether or not a particular phenotypical trait will dominate for a certain period of time over another. The longer the phenotypical trait is left in the area among other traits that are unlike it, the greater chance it will be bred out within a certain period of time.

That's why early Italics looked standard Dinaro Med. because the IE invasions happened at 3400 BC in N. Italy. The more 'Kurganid' traits associated with PIE speakers (that is working within the confines of the Kurgan culture for IE invasion of Italy) would have thus been reduced since the process was one of elite dominance more and more local autosomal traits dominating throughout the pennisula but also cause it was so far back in time.

[Conte Mascetti]

Where is your proof?

I don't say neither Italians are Nordids, nor ancient Italians were Nordids.
I say some ancient Italian tribes, not all tribes, but only the early Italics (latins, oschi, umbri, sanniti) showed Nordoid features.
Statues and skeletons can confirm this.
Italics were R1b bearers and IE who mixed with native people of Italy (Mediterranids, Alpinids, Dinarids).
èlite romans (latins) were Nordoids (not Nordids).

[Libertas]

I don't say neither Italians are Nordids, nor ancient Italians were Nordids.
I say some ancient Italian tribes, not all tribes, but only the early Italics (latins, oschi, umbri, sanniti) showed Nordoid features.
Statues and skeletons can confirm this.
Italics were R1b bearers and IE who mixed with native people of Italy (Mediterranids, Alpinids, Dinarids).
èlite romans (latins) were Nordoids (nor Nordids).

What statues or skeletons?

I've seen no Nordic-looking Roman statues.

Show me some, if you please.

[Smeagol]

Lol, who translated ''flavius'' as an adjective of physical appearence?

Flavius was (and still is, Flavi) a surname (prenomen), not an indicator of physical appearence...it would be like saying that all the americans named ''smith'' are people who work with iron

Flavius is not used to describe any emperor. Suetonius used the word sub-flavum to describe the hair colour of Augustus, and Nero, which possibly meant a light brown colour.

[Prince Carlo]

Not all European blonds or near-blonds are Nordic.

Many are Borreby or a certain type of Alpine.

I doubt if ANYWHERE in Italy outside the South Tyrol has as much as 7 to 9 pc per cent of tall, long-headed Nordics.

Nordic is a cultural term, not racial. Maybe you meant nordid?

[Sikeliot]

I think its not so much a matter of percentage of admixture per se, but whether or not a particular phenotypical trait will dominate for a certain period of time over another. The longer the phenotypical trait is left in the area among other traits that are unlike it, the greater chance it will be bred out within a certain period of time.

So what you mean is the coastal Sicilians in the north are lighter because Norman influence was recent, but eventually those traits will be bred out.

[Peyrol]

How Svetonio could have described in detail Nerone since the emperor died 2 years before Svetonio's birth? The same for Augusto and also for the ''nigris oculi nigrosque pilos'' Cesare.
Don't take roman historians as ''ipse dixit'', they weren't good neither as historians and neither and depicters.

[Vesuvian Sky]

So what you mean is the coastal Sicilians in the north are lighter because Norman influence was recent, but eventually those traits will be bred out.

Yeah probably unless they only marry amongst themselves. Think of it this way: the whole reason North European components and M-17 are among the higher castes in India is, well, because of the caste system established by the Indo-Aryans at a certain point in time (though obviously after considerable admixture with some of the locals).

[Sikeliot]

Yeah probably unless they only marry amongst themselves. Think of it this way: the whole reason North European components and M-17 are among the higher castes in India is, well, because of the caste system established by the Indo-Aryans at a certain point in time (though obviously after considerable admixture with some of the locals).

They haven't married amongst themselves. Amongst people in Palermo, most "light pigmented" types have visible Semitic influence in their features to me (legacy of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians) such that they look more like Ashkenazis than like today's Normans.

[Vesuvian Sky]

They haven't married amongst themselves. Amongst people in Palermo, most "light pigmented" types have visible Semitic influence in their features to me (legacy of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians) such that they look more like Ashkenazis than like today's Normans.

Well genetics is a role of the dice. Some features may persist in one area over another due to a myriad of factors. But I'd say the lighter features you see among Sicilians in places like Palermo would have to do substantially more with Norman influence then Italic. I think Italic genes still flow through Italy, but they are not as much as they were c. 3400 BC, that's for sure (that is if you prefer that scenario as an example).

Also what of Oetzi's look? He's probably a good proxy to show how people within the Italian penninsula predominantly looked like by the Neolithic. He had ample paleo-meso- DNA plus significant Neolithic admixture (West Asian, SW Asian) yet he looked mainly cromagnid according to most reconstructions. Also here's what forensics and DNA analysis showed of his phenotype:

His hair, which all fell out during the mummification process, was dark and wavy. He wore it at least at shoulder length and probably loose. Besides strands of human head hair, shorter, curly hairs were also found at the site, indicating that in all probability the Iceman had a beard.
DNA tests have determined that he had brown eyes. The soft tissues of the face were deformed by the ice. Several experts have meanwhile attempted to reconstruct the Iceman’s facial features. The most recent reconstruction, which will also be on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology (pictured), was created by the Dutch artists Adrie and Alfons Kennis. It is based on the very latest research findings.

http://www.iceman.it/en/node/258