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Thread: Origin of European Paleness(skin, hair and eye color)

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    Default Origin of European Paleness(skin, hair and eye color)


    Basics of what i will say
    White skin: Origin mid east with early Caucasins 60,000-80,000ybp. Became dominte in Europeans ancestors wither while still in the mid east probably over 50,000ybp or while in Europe 60,000-20,000ybp. It would not have randomly spread across Europe when it was already heavily populated for thousends of years like some have said. It comes from the founding population of all Europeans which aust dna tests have found that spread acroos europe when Europe was not populated by Humans or those humans bloodlines are extinct. So Europeans ancestors have been white skinned in my opinon from anywhere from 20,000-60,000 years.

    Fair hair: For fair hair so blonde and blonde brown hair mixes. It seems it was probably more popular in Europe before farming spread starting 10,000ybp. and may have been the most popular hair color in Europeans before farming spread. It either originated in Europe well over 20,000ybp or in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp.

    light eyes: since the ancestral alle and derived alle percentages for blue eyes is diff in Europeans and mid easterns. And that they are somewhat popular in mid east groups like Assyrians who in aust dna show no traces of European blood. They all most likely originate din the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. and became more popular in Europeans ancestor's possible because of Europe's climate.

    red hair: Origins of Red hair. Since it exists in Samartians of Palestine who show no traces of European blood in aust dna there have been tests on all 700. It most likely originated in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. as it probably first went over 1% around Russia 10,000-20,000ybp, Then as Indo European languages began around that area. Spread to west Europe with Germanic Italo celtic languages starting 5,000ybp and R1b L51 and R1b L11. Red hair also existed in proto Indo Iranian speakers.

    I think the reason why Europeans became so pale even though the genes for their paleness exists in all Caucasians so mid easterns, north Africans, and north Indians is because of climate. The Paleness of Europeans in a way tell a story of the cold and dark climate Europeans ancestors had to find a way to adapt too.



    Since the genes associated with European pale skin are almost as popular in all other Caucasians mid easterns, north Africans, and north Indians. There are also some mid eastern ethnic groups with just about as pale skin as Europeans. With little to no traces of strong European blood in aust DNA defintley not more than dark skinned people in the mid east. Some exaples are Georgians, Samartians, and Druze.

    If u dont believe me there are mid easterns as pale as Europeans here are some examples. I guess u can say a cherry picked.



    Also red hair does exist in Samartiens of Palestine. Even though on their was a globe13 aust dna test of all 700. All had 0% of Paleolithic-Mesolithic European group called North Euro. Which is the only aust group to originate in Europe and defines Europeans as separate from other Caucasians. So really no traces of European blood.

    Samaritan redhead boy during Passover. click here for Origin of red hair.

    There is no doubt that the genes associated with European pale skin originated with early Caucasians in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. For red hair it also most likely originated in the mid east with early Caucasians 60,000-80,000ybp. If u dont think red hair can survive in the mid east for that long because of how recessive it is u are wrong. Because the proto Indo iranian speakers who migrated out of northern Russia starting 5,000ybp. and spread throughout all of central asia and from iran-india from 5,000-3,00ybp. They had over 1% red hair my explanations are on the link of origin of red hair. and Where proto Indo Iranian speakers ancestry originate. I also show in those links red hair still pops up in Indo iranian speaking ethnic groups after 3,500 years such as Kalash in Pakistan, Pashuten in Afghanistan, Kurds in iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey. So red hair defintley could survive in the mid east for 60,000-80,000 years Samaritan redheads are evidence of that.
    For blue eyes which distributions is connected with all non brown eye colors meaning they may have all originated together. Click here the percentage of the ancestral alle and derived alle of blue eyes is different in Europeans and mid easterns. Showing mid eastern blue eyes which are more popular than u would think don't come from European inter marriage. One of the groups they showed in the mid east were Assyrians. Who in the globe13 test like Samaritans showed no traces of European blood.
    For blonde hair i don't really know if there are any blondes in the mid east or in any other Caucasians but Europeans. Blonde hair from just looking at it seem to be connected with brown hair. Since u can have light brown and many blondes who have traces of brown hair. It may just be a lighter version of brown hair but i have no knowledge of how the genes work so i don't know. Orignalley all humans had black hair but brown hair only exists in Caucasians probably originate din the mid east with early Caucasians 60,000-80,000ybp. It is very popular throughout Europe, mid east, and north Africa it has less pigmentation than black hair so it is paler. I have heard of some rare cases of brown hair in Japanese and Native Americans but probably caused by diff genes so it has a diff origin. I have showed on this thread how blonde probably was more popular in Europe before the spread of farming starting 10,000ybp and may have ven been the main hair color of Europeans over 10,000ybp. I would think blonde hair originated in Europe well over 20,000ybp or mid east with early Caucasians 60,000-80,000ybp.

    So overall European white skin, red hair, and light eyes most likely first appeared in early Caucasians in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. For blonde hair and all brown hair blonde hair mixes either orignated in Europe well over 20,000ybp or in the mid east with early Caucasians 60,000-80,000ybp.

    It is hard to say when those genes became popular and dominate in Europeans ancestors. For pale skin since i showed how some mid eastern ethnic groups are about as pale as Europeans and the genes associated with European pale skin are just about as popular in other Caucasians mid east, north Africa, and northern India. There is a chance when Europeans ancestors arrived in Europe 30,000-60,000ybp that they were already white skinned. But if they were not looking at Genetics and spread of diff ethnic groups and languages families and all that other stuff in Europe. Europe has deifntley been white skinned for well over 10,000 years. At the very least i would say 20,000 years. Pale skinned i dont think could have just randomly spread acroos Europe like some have theorized. Because then u are talking about one pale skinned people genetically replacing the rest of europe that is the only way. Everyone in a contient cant randomly start to be aple skinned why would pale skin keep winning and spreading. It would have been in the founding population of all Europeans that then spread acroos Europe which was not populated yet or the populations that did live there like Neanderthals bloodline is extinct.

    In globe13 aust DNa the only trace of a group that originated in Europe probably 30,000ybp or more. Is called North Euro it is called that because it is most popular there but is spread out in all of Europe. Europeans before farming spread were like Native Americans very genetically isolated. They all would have been 100% of the group North Euro. So they are deifntley the source of European populations being all pale skinned. There are no other traces of people in Europe over 10,000ybp. So when this group spread acroos Europe and they either were the only people there or for some reason the other humans there died out. I think Europeans founding populations 30,000-60,000ybp would have been white skinned.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 09-11-2013 at 12:42 AM.

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    according to 23andme, I have the mutation chromosome AA. But this is common
    Silverknight
    ..." And the angle of the sun changed it all .."





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    The pale skin color is very young:

    European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests

    Researchers have disagreed for decades about an issue that is only skin-deep: How quickly did the first modern humans who swept into Europe acquire pale skin? Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago. This contradicts a long-standing hypothesis that modern humans in Europe grew paler about 40,000 years ago, as soon as they migrated into northern latitudes. Under darker skies, pale skin absorbs more sunlight than dark skin, allowing ultraviolet rays to produce more vitamin D for bone growth and calcium absorption. “The [evolution of] light skin occurred long after the arrival of modern humans in Europe,” molecular anthropologist Heather Norton of the University of Arizona, Tucson, said in her talk.

    The genetic origin of the spectrum of human skin colors has been one of the big puzzles of biology. Researchers made a major breakthrough in 2005 by discovering a gene, SLC24A5, that apparently causes pale skin in many Europeans, but not in Asians. A team led by geneticist Keith Cheng of Pennsylvania State University (PSU) College of Medicine in Hershey found two variants of the gene that differed by just one amino acid. Nearly all Africans and East Asians had one allele, whereas 98% of the 120 Europeans they studied had the other (Science, 28 October 2005, p. 601).

    Norton, who worked on the Cheng study as a graduate student, decided to find out when that mutation swept through Europeans. Working as a postdoc with geneticist Michael Hammer at the University of Arizona, she sequenced 9300 base pairs of DNA in the SLC24A5 gene in 41 Europeans, Africans, Asians, and American Indians.

    Using variations in the gene that did not cause paling, she calculated the background mutation rate of SLC24A5and thereby determined that 18,000 years had passed since the light-skin allele was fixed in Europeans. But the error margins were large, so she also analyzed variation in the DNA flanking the gene. She found that Europeans with the allele had a “striking lack of diversity” in this flanking DNA—a sign of very recent genetic change, because not enough time has passed for new mutations to arise. The data suggest that the selective sweep occurred 5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision of method, the real date could be as far back as 12,000 years ago, Norton said. She added that other, unknown, genes probably also cause paling in Europeans.

    Either way, the implication is that our European ancestors were brown-skinned for tens of thousands of years—a suggestion made 30 years ago by Stanford University geneticist L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He argued that the early immigrants to Europe, who were hunter-gatherers, herders, and fishers, survived on ready-made sources of vitamin D in their diet. But when farming spread in the past 6000 years, he argued, Europeans had fewer sources of vitamin D in their food and needed to absorb more sunlight to produce the vitamin in their skin. Cultural factors such as heavier clothing might also have favored increased absorption of sunlight on the few exposed areas of skin, such as hands and faces, says paleoanthropologist Nina Jablonski of PSU in State College.

    Such recent changes in skin color show that humans are still evolving, says molecular anthropologist Henry Harpending of the University of Utah, Salt Lake City: “We have all tacitly assumed for years that modern humans showed up 45,000 years ago and have not changed much since, while this and other work shows that we continue to change, often at a very fast rate.”

    source

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverKnight View Post
    according to 23andme, I have the mutation chromosome AA. But this is common
    I guess that is the one they associate with European pale skin. even though most brown skinned mid easterns, north Africans, and north Indians have it. Ur Y DNA and mtDNa are sub sharen African i u deifntley get ur AA from European blood. So i guess ur a total mix. Brown skin pops up in my family even though we are 100%, German, British isles, Norway, and Swiss. My dads who am i test on geno 2,0. his to biggest groups 40% med and 35% north Euro average for people of his ancestry over 55% north euro and under 35% med. i saw for the mid east they werent specfic they dont have groupslike west asina. They i gues just call it all med so i was thinking maybe it is mid eastern blood. He also got 5% native american most of our ancestry or around 50% has been here since before america was formed. We have record all the way back on both sides no non white's. My Dad Y DNA direct paternal lineage is typical western European Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11. when my dad was a kid he though possible his mom cheated on his dad even though they have the same birth marks. we know it had to off come from before my dads grandparents on his dads side somehow a woman maybe mid eastern inter married but no records of it. So it may just be we have over time more mid eastern mix than average.

    the 5% native american 3% sub shara, and 2% oceania may be for real. i think the native american is the best chance. I have noticed even though in aust dna tests mexicans average about half Iberian origin and half native american they almost always have native american dark reddish skin. Look at zimmerman german father mexican mother he has dark skin. Native american dark skin genes for some reason survive very well. i dont maybe thats the source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogen View Post
    The pale skin color is very young:

    European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests

    Researchers have disagreed for decades about an issue that is only skin-deep: How quickly did the first modern humans who swept into Europe acquire pale skin? Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago. This contradicts a long-standing hypothesis that modern humans in Europe grew paler about 40,000 years ago, as soon as they migrated into northern latitudes. Under darker skies, pale skin absorbs more sunlight than dark skin, allowing ultraviolet rays to produce more vitamin D for bone growth and calcium absorption. “The [evolution of] light skin occurred long after the arrival of modern humans in Europe,” molecular anthropologist Heather Norton of the University of Arizona, Tucson, said in her talk.

    The genetic origin of the spectrum of human skin colors has been one of the big puzzles of biology. Researchers made a major breakthrough in 2005 by discovering a gene, SLC24A5, that apparently causes pale skin in many Europeans, but not in Asians. A team led by geneticist Keith Cheng of Pennsylvania State University (PSU) College of Medicine in Hershey found two variants of the gene that differed by just one amino acid. Nearly all Africans and East Asians had one allele, whereas 98% of the 120 Europeans they studied had the other (Science, 28 October 2005, p. 601).

    Norton, who worked on the Cheng study as a graduate student, decided to find out when that mutation swept through Europeans. Working as a postdoc with geneticist Michael Hammer at the University of Arizona, she sequenced 9300 base pairs of DNA in the SLC24A5 gene in 41 Europeans, Africans, Asians, and American Indians.

    Using variations in the gene that did not cause paling, she calculated the background mutation rate of SLC24A5and thereby determined that 18,000 years had passed since the light-skin allele was fixed in Europeans. But the error margins were large, so she also analyzed variation in the DNA flanking the gene. She found that Europeans with the allele had a “striking lack of diversity” in this flanking DNA—a sign of very recent genetic change, because not enough time has passed for new mutations to arise. The data suggest that the selective sweep occurred 5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision of method, the real date could be as far back as 12,000 years ago, Norton said. She added that other, unknown, genes probably also cause paling in Europeans.

    Either way, the implication is that our European ancestors were brown-skinned for tens of thousands of years—a suggestion made 30 years ago by Stanford University geneticist L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He argued that the early immigrants to Europe, who were hunter-gatherers, herders, and fishers, survived on ready-made sources of vitamin D in their diet. But when farming spread in the past 6000 years, he argued, Europeans had fewer sources of vitamin D in their food and needed to absorb more sunlight to produce the vitamin in their skin. Cultural factors such as heavier clothing might also have favored increased absorption of sunlight on the few exposed areas of skin, such as hands and faces, says paleoanthropologist Nina Jablonski of PSU in State College.

    Such recent changes in skin color show that humans are still evolving, says molecular anthropologist Henry Harpending of the University of Utah, Salt Lake City: “We have all tacitly assumed for years that modern humans showed up 45,000 years ago and have not changed much since, while this and other work shows that we continue to change, often at a very fast rate.”

    source
    If u read what i wrote is shows this is total BS. honestly triggered by racism. European lght skin, red hair, an dlight eyes all orignated in the mid eats probably 60,000-80,000ybp. There are some light skinned mid eastern groups. 6,000 year old DNA from early Indo European Kurgen people in souther Ukriane all light skin. If u look at the spread of people in Europe there is no way light skin in europeans is that young. Stating 10,000ybp was the spread of Y DNa G2a, E1b1b V13, j1, and J2 farmers from the mid east with predomintley in aust dna a group most call med. The native hunter gathers hg I with 100% a group they call north euro. If anything dark skinned people have spread acroos europe in the last 10,000 years.'

    There is no doubt dominte light skin, high amounts of fair hair and eyes are rements of mesloithic-Paleoithic European hunter gathers who were the only people in Europe over 10,000ybp. The idea that somehow brown skin died out and light skin spread in a contient already densly populated and had been settled over 30,000 years early is insane. U are talking about huge migrations of these light skinned peple how would they trun everyone esle brown. Aust dna has shown all europeans trace back to the same family. And that family is the only one we know of that lived in europe over 10,000ybp. most likley arrived 30,000-60,000ybp since this aust dna group is unqiue to Europe and originated there. When Europeans pread acroos the contient that was not populate they were already pale skinned.

    at first i just listend to what those people said. Until i began to think for myself and realize they are just guessing and age estimates on genes and when they spread is very unaccurate. Just wait till they can tell skin color of pre historic european remains u will be shocked by how pale they are.

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    Those genes they said cause European pale skin i shows in this thread are almost just as popular as in mid easterns and north Africans. Teh fact they say those genes are only 20,000 years old and originate din europe shows they are full of BS. Those gene sdid not randomly spread acroos europe which they are theorizing they already were very popular just as much as today when europeans ancestors arrived, So that destorys their whole theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    The idea that somehow brown skin died out and light skin spread in a contient already densly populated and had been settled over 30,000 years early is insane.
    Why? Lactose tolerance did not exist ten thousand years ago!

    But now:


    Sorry, the European population was changed many times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogen View Post
    Why? Lactose tolerance did not exist ten thousand years ago!

    But now:


    Sorry, the European population was changed many times.
    That is not true. The sami and far northern Scandinavians were nit farmers till very recently but they have the highest amount. So obvisouly it has nothing to do with the spread of farming which brings domesticated animals which brings milk. I dont think people understand that northern Scandnaviens are not Norwiegan or Swedish they are either Sami or Finnish. Sami and Finnish people overall in aust dna are the closet match to samples of Mesloithic European hunter gathers so not farmers. The aust dna samples of NEloithic European farmers in globe13 test showed they were dominted by the group they call meditreaen. And that before farming spread Europeans had 100% a group they call north european. Meditreaen came in the neloithic age with farmers who brought milk. ut Sami and finnish have the lowest amount of med highest amount of north euro and are the best natural milk drinkers in europe.

    The percatge of europeans who can drink milk i forgot what it is called. is very similar to the distrubtation of Mesloithic-Paleoithic european aust dna group north euro. which like i said came from pre farming pre milk drinking europeans. So it is really from europeans who lived over 10,000ybp.

    I showed u so manyw ays how it is impossible for light skin to have spread acroos europe 6,000-12,000ybp. The genes they said that spread we now know exist in mid easterns and north africans at about the same rate as europeans. So there theory it originated in europe and spread acroos europe is wrong it would have already been dominte in europeans ancestors when they arrived anywhere from 30,000-60,000ybp. right there that destorys there whole theory now we need to start over. I showed u how there are light skinned groups of mid easterns. Mainly Geogians who have the highest amount in the globe13 test of west asian the brother of North European which really should just be called European or Paleoithic European. There is a very good chance Europeans ancestors were pale skinned when they arrived in Europe.

    Also there is no way pale skin could have spread acroos a continent that had was densly populated and had been populated for over 40,000 years already. There was already a long history of genetics. Why would everyone suddenly became pale skinned why would pale skin always win it makes no sense. Europeans founding family spread acroos europe with pale skin when it was not populated with humans so a very very very very very long time ago. Also i showed how light eyes and red hair would have originated in the mid east probably 60,000-80,000ybp. but became more popular in europeans ancestors while in europe. But since Paleolithic European group North Euro is very similar to the distrubtation of fair hair and eyes i made an argument that both have a very old age in europe. And were much more popular before the spread of farming mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. So overall European paleness is much older than some predictions i have seen.

    U can judge this 15,000 year old Magdlonian carvings of humans in western France. The cave is called La Marche. There is no doubt they were what u call in the European family. They actulley would have been 100% European. Europeans get their pale skin form their Mesolithic-Paleolithic European side not a suprise these people were 100%. This culture in southwestern europe has been shown i think as pretty much a fact to have spread mtDNa H1, H3, U5b1(not all), and V. They most likley had Y DNa I2, or I2a, or I2a1, or I2a1a. at this time Europeans were like native Americans genetically isolated.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 09-10-2013 at 02:44 AM.

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    So there is not a contact between the Lactose tolerance and the animal husbandry. This is an interesting theory too, but this was the reality 5,400-4,300 years before present:

    "Here we investigate the frequency of an allele (-13910*T) associated with lactase persistence in a Neolithic Scandinavian population. From the 14 individuals originally examined, 10 yielded reliable results. We find that the T allele frequency was very low (5%) in this Middle Neolithic hunter-gatherer population, and that the frequency is dramatically different from the extant Swedish population (74%)."
    source: Helena Malmstrm, Anna Linderholm, Kerstin Lidn, Jan Stor, Petra Molnar, Gunilla Holmlund, Mattias Jakobsson and Anders Gtherstrm: High frequency of lactose intolerance in a prehistoric hunter-gatherer population in northern Europe - BMC Evolutionary Biology, 2010

    The contemporary European population's ancestors were Neolithic or later immigrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    If u dont believe me there are mid easterns as pale as Europeans here are some examples.
    This man is olive-skinned - the type of pale found in Southern Europe however I would not call that fair.

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