More Eupedia mtDNA maps U4, U3, and U2

[Fire Haired]

Click here for original Eupeida thread of U4


I can kind of understand the connection Maciamo see's with Y DNA R1a and mtDNA U4. But the R1a and U4 ratio is not constant. If a people group has low R1a but the highest R1a in their area and good amount of U4 Maciamo uses them as evidence. Usually Maciamo theory's make a lot of sense but so far what he says about his mtDNa maps is total BS. He generalizes Indo Europeans for example in Iberia he should be saying Celts. And the early Indo Europeans around Russia, Ukriane, and Caucus 6,000-8,000ybp were not unified genetically. Proof of this is 5,000 and 6,000 year old Yamna people in southern Russia and Ukraine were very dark eyed(click here). But Andronovo culture(3,800-3,400ybp) in south central Siberia descended from Yamna and probably spoke Indo Iranian language had mainly light eyes and light hair same with pigmentation genes from all Indo Iranians in Asia from bronze and iron ages(Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA). They came straight out of Europe 5,000 years ago there were no light Europeans in Asia they could have inter married with.

U4 is pretty popular in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers(Ancient Eurasian DNA), much more popular than anywhere in the world today. There is also samples of U4 in Neolithic Europe before mainly R1a1a1b1 Z283 Indo European Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) spread in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia. So probably the vast majority of U4 in Europe are just Mesolithic hunter gather lineages. R1a1a M17 most likely originated in Europe(click here) and probably is descended from a hunter gather lineage and its decendant R1a1a1 M417 spread with Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages and possibly partly with other Indo European languages. So with this Macimo makes an argument that U4 Is connected with R1a because and is own explanation on how it could still have partly spread with R1a he should say R1a1a1 M417 to be more specific.


Click here for original Eupeida Thread of U3.


Once again Maciamo generalizes "The Indo Europeans" and the R1b branch. When really it only seems Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and even if not it is not R1b its R1b1a P297 as the oldest branch. And he cant generalize a R1b branch of Indo Europeans it not that simple!!! But I do agree with him that since Germanic and Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 ancestor subclades R1b1a2a1a L23, R1b1a2a M269, or R1b1a P297 migrated to Europe through the Near east so that could be the source of U3 in far western Europe.
Click here for original Eupeida Thread of U2.


I seriously am shocked by what Maciamo said about U2. There are many U2e samples from Mesolithic Europe(Ancient Eurasian DNA) proving U2e in Europe is not Indo European and not connected with Y DNA R1a and R1b like he theorized. I really cant believe he tried to connect it with R1a and R1b he generalized the two haplogroups once again. R1b1a2a1a L11 began to spread in western Europe just 4,500-5,000ybp with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages.. R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not become very popular in eastern and central Europe, and Scandinavia until Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) 5,000ybp. I guess that the common ancestor to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 and Corded ware R1a1a1b1 Z283 would have originated around Russia and Ukriane and R1a may have originated in Europe around 18,000ybp. But R1a and R1b did not become widespread in Europe till very recently. I would connect the 37,985 year old U2 sample in Russia to European the origin of European U2e and may have had U2e. And since U2 is so old it probably had split a very long time ago over 40,000 years ago from the U2 subclades popular in south asia.

[Black Wolf]

Right on Fire Boy.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The data is very nice. Like you say, as usual he makes some sweeping conclusions from it that are almost at conspiracy theory levels.

If anything these maps show that the europeans have a long history in this whole area. These are obviously the more ancient inhabitants of europe not the invaders. He seems to be trying hard to make it out like everyone in europe was a recent invader except for scandinavians.

[Maleficent]

U3 is concentrated in the Dead Sea area as it should be. U3a is the most common mtdna in my dad's Relative Finder, many U3 individuals still occupy this ancestral homeland due to a founder effect, population growth from only a few individuals.

I'm happy to have more information about U2e; seems Mesolithic European and not Indo-European. I'd like to know where it actually peaks in Europe besides certain parts of Russia.

[Fire Haired]

The data is very nice. Like you say, as usual he makes some sweeping conclusions from it that are almost at conspiracy theory levels.

If anything these maps show that the europeans have a long history in this whole area. These are obviously the more ancient inhabitants of europe not the invaders. He seems to be trying hard to make it out like everyone in europe was a recent invader except for scandinavians.

I kind of agree Maciamo seems to try make everything have a Neolithic or Indo European origin. He also generalizes Indo Europeans, Cro Magnon, and haplogroups. Usually what he says makes total sense and he is a total expert in history and genetics. I have noticed he never mentions his native country, Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroup which I am sure he has tested for. All he says is he is Celto-Germanic and lives in Brussels, Belgium and has been in every country in Europe. The reason is probably he doesn't want people to think he is biased towards any country or haplogroup and I am pretty much 100% sure he is English. When insulting me in a sarcastic way he called me good chap and in a very early thread when talking about mtDNA he used the word mum which is slang for mother in the British isles. Who in Europe has Celtic and Germanic ancestry besides English and lowland Scottish. I guess kind of more southern Germany and Switzerland, But since he also writes in perfect English and uses British slang words and that from what I have seen Scottish claim to be only Celtic he is probably English. I should probably insult England and see how he reacts.

I think though that because of austomal DNA of European hunter gathers that he would agree a huge chunk and majority of the ancestry of most Europeans is from very early Palaeolithic Europeans. But the origin of haplogroups is different and a lot of the theories I now see through through reading his thread he made 2-4 years ago. Like saying R1b in western Europe is connected with Germanic and Italo celtic languages and at some point came out of the Near east many experts believe that now but 3-4 years ago many people though R1b in west Europe was Palaeolithic.

[Fire Haired]

U3 is concentrated in the Dead Sea area as it should be. U3a is the most common mtdna in my dad's Relative Finder, many U3 individuals still occupy this ancestral homeland due to a founder effect, population growth from only a few individuals.

I'm happy to have more information about U2e; seems Mesolithic European and not Indo-European. I'd like to know where it actually peaks in Europe besides certain parts of Russia.

U3 defintley originated in the Near east and has pretty much only stayed their till probably Neolithic. Maybe it did originate around the Dead sea but who knows. Is ur dad Jewish? U2e defintley originated in Palaeolithic Europe I don't think it is random 37,985 year old mtDNA sample from Russia had U2 and Europe today has its own branch U2e and that it is popular in Mesloithic European hunter gathers. That 37,985 year old U2 may have had U2e if not defintley is connected with it and U2 has probably been in Europe for over 40,000 years and formed into U2e while in Europe.

[Black Wolf]

Maybe U3 is a mtDNA haplogroup found in Europeans today that we can definitely say came during the Neolithic or later.

[Tchek]

All he says is he is Celto-Germanic and lives in Brussels, Belgium and has been in every country in Europe. The reason is probably he doesn't want people to think he is biased towards any country or haplogroup and I am pretty much 100% sure he is English.

I think Maciamo is really Belgian, from the southern part.

[Graham]

Oh nice, my Gran is U4a. Outwith my K.

Good to see a map.

[Fire Haired]

[Q
UOTE=SveinD;16724]I have absolutely no information on the distribution of hair colour in Scandinavia so I cannot comment on that, but your statement that the Saami are in the majority in the north is not correct.

Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saami_people "According to the Swedish Sami Parliament, the Sami population of Norway is 40,000. If all people who speak Sami or have a parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent who speaks or spoke Sami are included, the number reaches 70,000. As of 2005, 12,538 people were registered to vote in the election for the Sami Parliament in Norway".

The population in the three northernmost counties in Norway, where the majority of the Saami live, is about 470,000 so even using the 70,000 number above the Saami population represent less than 20%. In Sweden with a much larger population the Saami percentage will be even smaller. I don't have any figures for Finland and it is possible that some of the northern areas there will have a majority Saami population - depending how you define Saami of course, but may be someone from Finland can supply the correct numbers.

I have been through the 500+ mtDNA results in the FTDNA Norway project, but people have not been very good at filling in the location of their oldest known maternal ancestor and there are only 25 entries that can be identified with the three northern counties so the sample is far too small to draw any conclusion. The largest numbers however are U5=6, H1=5, V=2, J=2, H3=2, make of that what you will.

Keep posting Fire Haired![/QUOTE]
Here is a red hair map of Europe and you can see especially in Scandinavia it is connected with R1b1a2a1a1 S21 and also I2a2 which proto Germanic speakers got from native central Europeans then brought it to Scandinavia.



Also here are some light hair and eye maps of Europe you can see in the northerneastern tip of Scandinavia it as dark as central France, Iberia, Italy, etc.