View Poll Results: Where did IE originate?

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  • West Asia

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  • Central-East Europe

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Thread: Indo-European origins.

  1. #31
    Veteran Member Siginulfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    This has nothing to do with Aryan and Untermensch things.It is just that PIE people were extremely warlike and patriarchal so they didn't include any foreign male into their group.

    Oh, really mister Aryan? And why is there J2 and G only in upper caste India?

    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2008/08/...-brahmins.html


    Take also a look at the frequencies of J2 and G in Indo-Iranian speaking groups.

    J2 and G Aryans included (for their luck) R1a nomads.
    .

  2. #32
    Peyrol
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    Let stay apart mDna...let's talk in a cultural and cultural-evolution way.

    Also some nigerian yourba carry I2b haplogrup, but this don't mean that they're skandos.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protospatha View Post
    Oh, really mister Aryan? And why is there J2 and G only in upper caste India?
    God you are such annoying with J2 and G.I am telling you J2 was native to Iran-Caucasus and has nothing to do with PIE you are obsessed with these lineages.Upper caste India has also the R1a that explains things well.You just have found a miniscule universe here and repeat the J2/G thing constantly.Your opinion is based by obsessions not facts and arguments.

  4. #34
    Veteran Member Siginulfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    God you are such annoying with J2 and G.I am telling you J2 was native to Iran-Caucasus and has nothing to do with PIE you are obsessed with these lineages.Upper caste India has also the R1a that explains things well.You just have found a miniscule universe here and repeat the J2/G thing constantly.Your opinion is based by obsessions not facts and arguments.
    You said they didn't include foreign admixtures. You are annoying with Slavo-supremacy R1a. Try to find convincing arguments and show me why Indo-Europeans didn't originate in West Asia instead of repeating the same things every one other tells me all the time.

    R1a in India is Z-93, not M458.

    I've shown a lot of papers and proofs, I don't see yours.
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  5. #35
    Veteran Member Siginulfo's Avatar
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    In this website you'll find hundreds of papers that demonstrates you all that Aryans were farmers. http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/default_en.asp
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  6. #36
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    Saraswati river mentioned by RgVeda proves that the Aryan culture in India is present at least by 4000-6000 b.C. This marries perfectly with the age of J2 and G in India.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protospatha View Post
    You said they didn't include foreign admixtures. You are annoying with Slavo-supremacy R1a. Try to find convincing arguments and show me why Indo-Europeans didn't originate in West Asia instead of repeating the same things every one other tells me all the time.

    R1a in India is Z-93, not M458.

    I've shown a lot of papers and proofs, I don't see yours.
    R1a is not Slavic haplogroup it is Proto Indo-European.Slavic is just linguistical notion and I2a2 is a more South Slavic marker than R1a therefore it has nothing to do with supremacy thing don't try to put words in my mouth.

    Phylogeography of R1a1 Y-chromosomal haplogroup and genetic history of Indo-Europeans. V. A. Stepanov, V. N. Kharkov Institute for Medical Genetics, Tomsk, Russian Federation.

    Recent discussion of the prehistoric spreading of the Indo-European language group has generally concentrated on two alternative hypotheses: so-called “Kurgan Culture” hypothesis, which places the homeland of proto-Indo-Europeans to the Steppe of Eastern Europe, and alternative hypothesis of the spread of farmers from the Near East (Anatolia) to Europe in the Neolithic times. Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1, lineage is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas, seems to be associated with the Kurgan culture. Three geographic areas with the highest frequency of R1a1 haplogroup were revealed: Eastern Europe; Southern Siberia and Hindustan where the highest diversity of microsatellite haplotypes was observed. Phylogenetic analysis of microsatellite haplotypes demonstrates the presence of three corresponding major clusters with the age of the generation of haplotytic diversity of 7.2-12.5 ky. The highest diversity in Hindustani is related to the presence of haplotypes of Indo-Pakistani and Southern Siberian clusters in the population from India and Pakistan, probably due to relatively recent migrations from Central Asia. The age of the cluster admittedly brought to Hindustan from Central Asia / Southern Siberia is 3,9 +/- 1,3 ky. Probably, the primary center of the generation of diversity and expansion of R1a1a was the territory of the Eastern European Steppe. With the spread of of R1a1 carriers, secondary centers of genetic diversity and population expansions were formed in the Southern Siberia and Hindustan.

    ...

    Estimating a date of mixture of ancestral South Asian populations. P. Moorjani1,2, N. Patterson2, P. Govindaraj3, L. Singh3,4,5, K. Thangaraj3,5, D. Reich1,2,5 1) Dept Gen, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA; 2) Broad Institute, Cambridge, MA; 3) Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad, India; 4) Genome Foundation, Hyderabad, India; 5) These authors co-directed the project.

    Linguistic and genetic studies have shown that most Indian groups have ancestry from two genetically divergent populations, Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI). However, the date of mixture still remains unknown. We analyze genome-wide data from about 60 South Asian groups using a newly developed method that utilizes information related to admixture linkage disequilibrium to estimate mixture dates. Our analyses suggest that major ANI-ASI mixture occurred in the ancestors of both northern and southern Indians 1,200-3,500 years ago, overlapping the time when Indo-European languages first began to be spoken in the subcontinent. These results suggest that this formative period of Indian history was accompanied by mixtures between two highly diverged populations, although our results do not rule other, older ANI-ASI admixture events. A cultural shift subsequently led to widespread endogamy, which decreased the rate of additional population mixtures.
    The Y-DNA of Tarim Basin mummies associated with the Indo-European speaking Tocharians.

    Fifteen individuals' AMG amplicons were obtained from the 20 Xiaohe individuals (whose mtDNA was successfully amplified), among which seven individuals were identified as male and eight as female. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the seven males were all assigned to haplogroup R1a1a through screening the Y-SNPs at M89, M9, M45, M173 and M198 successively. Haplogroup R1a1a is widely distributed in Eurasia: it is mainly found in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, South Asia, Siberia, ancient Siberia, but rare in East Asia
    Source

  8. #38
    Veteran Member Siginulfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    R1a is not Slavic haplogroup it is Proto Indo-European.Slavic is just linguistical notion and I2a2 is a more South Slavic marker than R1a therefore it has nothing to do with supremacy thing don't try to put words in my mouth.



    The Y-DNA of Tarim Basin mummies associated with the Indo-European speaking Tocharians.



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    That happened because the Saraswati dried up and people migrated to other regions of India, simply.
    .

  9. #39
    Veteran Member Siginulfo's Avatar
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    Another one:

    "'The Horse and the Aryan Debate' by Michel Danino
    This paper examines the latest evidence and shows that the horse was known and present in the Indus-Saraswati Culture in the mid-third millennium BCE and therefore was not brought by the hypothetical invasion/immigration of the Indoaryans into India c 1500 BCE."

    PDF here: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...yan_Debate.pdf


    And another:

    "'Genetics and the Aryan Debate' by Michel Danino
    This paper examines the latest genetic evidence which shows that there was no invasion or immigration into N-W India in significant numbers before 600 BCE. It was published in Puratattva, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society, New Delhi, No. 36, 2005-06, pp. 146-154."

    PDF: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...yan_Debate.pdf


    "'The RV predates the Sindhu-Sarasvati Culture' by N. Kazanas
    This paper was presented synoptically by Dr N. Kazanas at the Conference THE SINDHU-SARASVATI VALLEY CIVILIZATION: A REAPPRAISAL, in Los Angeles (Feb 2009).
    Argument: There are misconceptions about rigvedic pur, ratha and samudra based on the Aryan Invasion/Immigration myth. Then, there are some 10 characteristic features of the Sarasvati-Sindhu Culture which are not found in the Rig Veda. Moreover palaeoastronomical evidence (mainly N. Achar's work) places some BrAhmaNa texts c 3000 and the oldest layers of the MahAbhArata 3067. All this (and more) suggests that the (bulk of the) Rig Veda should be assigned to well before 3200 BCE - however unpalatable to mainstream thought this may be."

    PDF: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/RPSSC.pdf


    So, I've demonstrated that J2/G had the horse, no invasion until 600 B.C. and that the Rig Vedic Civilization was pre-Harappan, what else do you want?

    Oh, Tarim mummies weren't neither Tocharian, nor Indo-European. Tocharian language is attested by 600-800 A.D., and ths fits well with the more recent mummies of 2000 years ago that were J2 and G.

    Haplogroups frequency in modern Uyghur:

    Uygur/Urumqi:
    1/31 = 3.2% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This could be B, F*, G, H, or I, but, judging from other sources of Uyghur Y-DNA data, it is most likely G-M201.)
    1/31 = 3.2% C*(xC1, C3) (This might be related to haplogroup C5-M356, which has been found in South Asia and Arabia.)
    2/31 = 6.5% E
    8/31 = 25.8% J
    1/31 = 3.2% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
    2/31 = 6.5% N1b
    1/31 = 3.2% O1a
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c1-M117
    6/31 = 19.4% P*(xR1a) (This could be P*, Q, R*, R1b, or R2. I would guess that it is mostly R1b, mixed with smaller numbers of Q and R2.)
    7/31 = 22.6% R1a

    Uygur/Yili:
    8/39 = 20.5% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This would be one of the highest frequencies of haplogroup G in the entire world if it were really all G-M201.)
    1/39 = 2.6% C*(xC1, C3)
    3/39 = 7.7% C3c
    1/39 = 2.6% DE(xE)
    5/39 = 12.8% K*(xNO, P)
    1/39 = 2.6% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
    2/39 = 5.1% N1c1
    2/39 = 5.1% O3*
    2/39 = 5.1% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
    2/39 = 5.1% O3a3c1-M117
    6/39 = 15.4% P*(xR1a)
    6/39 = 15.4% R1a
    Last edited by Siginulfo; 07-07-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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  10. #40
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    This map of Swastikas shows clearly that a movement south-north happened in its diffusion, and the spreader must be Neolithic farmers:

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