Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: The Origins of Lactase Persistence in Europe

  1. #21
    Banned Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Meta-Ethnicity
    European-style American
    Ethnicity
    California dreaming
    Gender
    Posts
    2,584
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 29/1
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Whatever a milk producing animal eats gets put into her milk. The study comparing mares milk to cows milk most likely was comparing confinement dairy cattle to range mares, which is an unfair study. Not saying that it was so, as I haven't read the study, but it wouldn't surprise me. Free range, grass pastured cows produce the healthiest milk, since they're not only eating real grazing appropiate for cows, that is grasses and their seeds, they're also taking in minute amounts of bugs on said grasses, and in ideal situations, it is naturally fertilized by their own fecal matter and urine. Those conditions produce the best milk. And, ideally, this milk would be consumed either raw or fermented. Plus, the fat content of a milk actually makes the milk more tasty and wholesome, which is why Jersey cow milk tastes so much better than Holstein cow milk, there's 4-5% butterfat in Jersey as opposed to 3-3.5% percent butterfat in Holstein.

  2. #22
    Feminazist! Tabiti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last Online
    09-05-2023 @ 02:24 PM
    Location
    Great Steppes
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Alpha Female
    Ethnicity
    Onogondur Bulgarian
    Ancestry
    They drank from skulls...
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Taxonomy
    Pontisch
    Politics
    gynecocracy
    Religion
    The Sun/ The Moon/ The Stars
    Relationship Status
    Not your future girlfriend
    Gender
    Posts
    4,225
    Blog Entries
    3
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 152/4
    Given: 4/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    However I don't think that the data about Lactose tolerance on the Balkans is correct. We all were pastoral nations until the middle of 20th century, especially in some mountain regions where agriculture is almost impossible.
    “The truth is lived, not taught."
    Tabiti is just a paranoid Bulgarian who clearly has an agenda
    Void aka Dusan

  3. #23
    Burning in the Melting Pot Wölfin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    05-23-2012 @ 09:57 AM
    Location
    Too far from Cali.
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Canidae
    Ethnicity
    Canis Lupus
    Country
    Germany
    Region
    Rhineland
    Taxonomy
    Lycaon (Aterum)
    Politics
    #swag
    Age
    19
    Gender
    Posts
    1,040
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 16/0
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frigga's Spindle View Post
    Whatever a milk producing animal eats gets put into her milk. The study comparing mares milk to cows milk most likely was comparing confinement dairy cattle to range mares, which is an unfair study. Not saying that it was so, as I haven't read the study, but it wouldn't surprise me. Free range, grass pastured cows produce the healthiest milk, since they're not only eating real grazing appropiate for cows, that is grasses and their seeds, they're also taking in minute amounts of bugs on said grasses, and in ideal situations, it is naturally fertilized by their own fecal matter and urine. Those conditions produce the best milk. And, ideally, this milk would be consumed either raw or fermented. Plus, the fat content of a milk actually makes the milk more tasty and wholesome, which is why Jersey cow milk tastes so much better than Holstein cow milk, there's 4-5% butterfat in Jersey as opposed to 3-3.5% percent butterfat in Holstein.
    The fat maybe tasty, but its not as healthy once your development/growth is over By the way the study compared grassfed cattle and grassfed mares, I can't remember a specific breed for the cow but the mares were mostly heavy horse breeds, Belgians and Percherons. I was reading it in a French horse mag and this info was mentioned because there's a guy in France somewhere with mares whom he milks himself, by hand, and gives people a glimpse in to the mongolian way of live (yurts included and fermented alcoholic beverages as well lol).

    The main problem with mare milk though, is unlike cows, the mare needs a foal at her side, because the production of milk is stimulated by the sight of the foal.
    There'll be no diversity if we end up burning in the Melting pot...

  4. #24
    Banned Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Online
    @
    Meta-Ethnicity
    European-style American
    Ethnicity
    California dreaming
    Gender
    Posts
    2,584
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 29/1
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Fat in dairy is actually very healthy for human bodies regardless of your growth development. Especially when it is raw milk from grass fed cows.

  5. #25
    Comitate The Black Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    06-23-2010 @ 12:48 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Ingaevonic
    Taxonomy
    Nordid
    Gender
    Posts
    644
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 9/1
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammt
    Prior to the Scandinavian Middle-Age the agriculture was much more pastoral than after. It is seen in that the length of people in the north started to decrease a thousand years ago and a worsening in dental health, which are contributed to a more grain based diet. It is also seen in the new land clamed for fields and an explosion of new agriculture techniques that had long been used in continental Europe like better angle on the scythe, better hoes and sickles, water mills, drainage of fields, wood floors for better threshing. And the shift is seen in a great increase in population after the Viking-Age.

    This is interpreted as a shift from a more pastoral to grain based agriculture. Some archeologist calls this an agricultural revolution. And of course a more pastoral agriculture connected to the farm is possible in Scandinavia. It’s perfect for it. You simply herd animals in summer, harvest hay and save it for winter in the hayloft, and you eat a larger proportion of the animals in winter. That is what we have always done in the North. So Scandinavians were more pastoral and that is the origin of high lactase persistence.

    The milk drinking pastoral Scandinavians might have come from Central Europe ca 6000 years ago though.
    Interesting insight, personally I think that R1b might indeed be the carriers for the milk digesting gene but that they mixed with the local I1 to a state that both were equal carriers of that gene in this area.
    Since (as Jammt above stated) milk was drunk and used on a daily base, perhaps especially during winter (nothing better as fresh still warm milk from a cow.). And I know life expectancy was low, the later might also have to do with some not able to digest milk well. Those might have drank water but good quality water was not always available. Those people thus had a (slightly) greater chance to die young and therefore to not reproduce their 'not lactase persistence'. Perhaps it took a 1000 or 3000 years, but on some point more as 99% of the North-European population was lactase persistent.

    A maybe reason why that in other regions where R1b is common the percentage of lactase persistence is lower might have to do with the quicker usage of the entire package: domesticated cattle and domestication of plants like grains. Drinking beer instead of (bad quality) water increases your chance on survival. Beer is as old as the start of the Neolithic but was later introduced in North-Europe perhaps only in a time when already 99% of the local population was lactase persistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frigga's Spindle View Post
    Whatever a milk producing animal eats gets put into her milk. The study comparing mares milk to cows milk most likely was comparing confinement dairy cattle to range mares, which is an unfair study. Not saying that it was so, as I haven't read the study, but it wouldn't surprise me. Free range, grass pastured cows produce the healthiest milk, since they're not only eating real grazing appropiate for cows, that is grasses and their seeds, they're also taking in minute amounts of bugs on said grasses, and in ideal situations, it is naturally fertilized by their own fecal matter and urine. Those conditions produce the best milk. And, ideally, this milk would be consumed either raw or fermented. Plus, the fat content of a milk actually makes the milk more tasty and wholesome, which is why Jersey cow milk tastes so much better than Holstein cow milk, there's 4-5% butterfat in Jersey as opposed to 3-3.5% percent butterfat in Holstein.
    In America dairyfarmers get paid by the amount of milk a cow produces (most milk is for consumption). In Europe the price of milk is based upon the fat percentage and the price for milk is established for kilograms milkfat. Reason for this is the cheese market, the fatter the milk the more cheese production per kg milk.
    With that in mind European farmers have breeded dairycattle. Hence in my region al cows are Holstein-Friesians and they have on average a 4-5% fat. Jerseys are not held here because they have the lowest quality of meat hence their's no market for Jersey meat.

  6. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    02-25-2010 @ 06:09 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    .
    Ethnicity
    .
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Posts
    1,533
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 14/0
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thulsa Doom View Post
    A south-central European origin of lactase persistence is possible but it doesn't explain this correlation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brännvin View Post
    The study actually says central European origin though..
    Here the map of origin according for the study;


  7. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    02-25-2010 @ 06:09 AM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    .
    Ethnicity
    .
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Posts
    1,533
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 14/0
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Allele frequencies of the lactase gene in Scandinavian Neolithic populations, hunter-gatherers vs. farmers

    "Genetics and culture are believed to interact, but it has been difficult to find direct evidence for the process. One example that has been put forward as a candidate is lactase persistance in adulthood, i.e. the ability to continue drinking milk. This genetic trait is believed to have evolved within a short space of time in connection with the emergence of farming cultures. Here we investigate certain Scandinavian Neolithic populations and their allele status with respect to the gene responsible for lactase persistance. We find that the allele responsible for lactase persistance was common and not significantly different from modern Swedish populations among Neolithic farmers, whereas Neolithic hunter-gatherers had a lower frequency of the allele".

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    04-28-2012 @ 04:02 PM
    Location
    the Open Road...
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Lancashire, Bernicia, Munster, Mercia etc.
    Country
    England
    Region
    Devon
    Taxonomy
    Manchester Man
    Politics
    Nationalist
    Religion
    British
    Age
    31
    Gender
    Posts
    7,419
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 118/11
    Given: 0/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brännvin View Post
    His team have now narrowed down the emergence of the gene to a tribe of cattle herders living around 7500 years ago between the Balkans and central Europe.

    The distribution of the gene mutation across the continent runs parallel to the spread of Linearbandkeramik (Linear Band Pottery) people, a Neolithic farming culture that lived in central Europe 7500 years ago. "It is likely that Linearbandkeramik dairy farmers were the first to drink fresh milk, without first processing it into yoghurt or cheese," Thomas says.
    I've always looked at the LBK peoples as instrumental in indoeuropeanising the continent...
    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson View Post
    One of the stranger things about the distribution of lactase persistence is that it is highest in those areas that, according to most models anyway, began a herding/pastoral lifestyle the latest.
    ... It's a very puzzling story as the modern distribution of tolerance is inverse to the way in which pastoralism and milk drinking supposedly spread.
    I'd say it fits in VERY well with the notion of neolithicisation as less of a demic spread matter past the Iron Gates Gorges of the Danube, and more a native adoption. The ancestors of the LBK lot took on a lot of the agricultural knowledge, but not necessarily the full package. Perhaps this meant a lack of traditional knowledge about dairy matters? In the Balkans, locals will have benefited directly from ancient traditions on milk processing, but this might not have been pased on appropriately for the northerners, leading to a serious evolutionary pressure?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabiti View Post
    Lactose tolerance is not directly linked with race, but way of live. Southern Europeans were mostly farmers, so they didn't drink that much milk to survive, unlike the Northern ones and those leading nomadic and semi-nomadic way of living.
    But do you traditionally prepare kefir and other such products? Ряженка?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thulsa Doom View Post
    Seems to be a lot of talk about cattle herding. I can´t recall any traditional pastoral groups in Europe, and in northern Europe it´s certainly not possible at all due to the need of winter forage. Most likely cattle breeding was connected to and spread by farmers.
    The archaeological syntheses that I used to read almost a decade ago were very insistent on a mixed economy north of the Danube, with foraging, farming and pastoralism intricately interacting. This is rather long ago, so not surprising you don't recall it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentian View Post
    I was reading it in a French horse mag and this info was mentioned because there's a guy in France somewhere with mares whom he milks himself, by hand, and gives people a glimpse in to the mongolian way of live (yurts included and fermented alcoholic beverages as well lol).
    SOunds like a good holiday idea - I may look him up!
    Quote Originally Posted by Brännvin View Post
    Here the map of origin according for the study;
    That fits my favourite PIE Urheimat exactly. up

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •