Evidence of a Germanic presence in eastern Europe

[d3cimat3d]

Some people are asking for evidence of east-Germanic people in eastern Europe so I decided to do a thread covering the topic. Some notable Germanic tribes of east Europe are Bastarnae, Scirii & most notably the Goths. Here's a map of Gothic archaeological sites:

I have been wondering for some time now, are there any Eastern Germanic haplotypes left in central-eastern-southern europe ? Do we even know what haplotypes they carried ?

Here is a chart of some eastern European populations.



Source

So what are the haplogroups associated with Germanic speaking people?
I1a, I1c, which are found in trace amounts in eastern Europe.

[Ibericus]

Actually one of the theories is that haplogroup I1 originated in the Balkans

[d3cimat3d]

Actually one of the theories is that haplogroup I1 originated in the Balkans

Yes but I1a is a sub-clade that isn't found in the Balkans but in Scandinavia & I1c is common in Germany.

[Bloodeagle]

Who is to say that some early Germanic tribes had not R1a1 and R1b1 in their composition?

[Agrippa]

Who is to say that some early Germanic tribes had not R1a1 and R1b1 in their composition?

They surely had, but I1 is a more secure marker so to say. R1a or R1b could be "this or that", for certain variants of I1 it is much more likely that it is of Germanic origin and you can extrapolate from that of course.

Some of the highest Germanic influences seem to be present in the Russian areas which are heavily Finno-Ugrian mixed in the North probably, there the population might be to a large degree that of Slavicised Germanics and Finno-Ugrians regionally.

I suppose the clearest Germanic influence we can recognise in the yDNA being mostly the result of Varangian/Viking settlements.

I don't know in which thread this was posted already:

Angela Fechner et al - Boundaries and Clines in the West Eurasian Y-Chromosome Landscape: Insights From the European Part of Russia // AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY, 2008



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Roewer использовал те же данные, что и Angela Fechner, или наоборот ))

Roewer et al. "Analysis of Y chromosome STR haplotypes in the European part of Russia reveals high diversities but non-significant genetic distances between populations" // Int J Legal Med, 2008

R1a-M17 258/545 47,3%
N3-TAT 80/545 14,7%
R1-M173 28/545 5,1%
K 9/545 1,7%
J2-M172 16/545 2,9%
I-M170 119/545 21,8%
G-M201 10/545 1,8%
DE-YAP 16/545 2,9%
C-RPS4Y 2/545 0,4%
F-M89 6/545 1,1%

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Вот результаты исследования русских популяций Олега Балановского и др.

[Ibericus]

Who is to say that some early Germanic tribes had not R1a1 and R1b1 in their composition?

Actually they had. The R1b-U106 is a germanic branch of R1b-M269

[Loki]

Good thread, I have often wondered about the Germanic legacy in Eastern Europe. They had a strong early influence in those areas noted in Nomad's first map, and no doubt left a lasting genetic mark on the region - especially in present-day Ukraine.

[Osweo]

There's some idea of the River Oka as having a Germanic name, related to Latin Aqua. This is the river that starts in the nook between the Ukraine and Belarus, into which the Moskva falls, and which then joins the Volga.

I'd love to hear of any similar material.

I'd also love to hear more on the fate of the 'stay at home' Goths of the Crimea... Into what later population did they merge? The Greek???

[d3cimat3d]

There's some idea of the River Oka as having a Germanic name, related to Latin Aqua. This is the river that starts in the nook between the Ukraine and Belarus, into which the Moskva falls, and which then joins the Volga.

I'd love to hear of any similar material.

I'd also love to hear more on the fate of the 'stay at home' Goths of the Crimea... Into what later population did they merge? The Greek???

I have doubts that Oka is derived from a Germanic word, if it is than it must be from the Varangians because Goths had little or nothing to do with Belarus & eastern Ukraine.

However Romanian historian Bogdan Petriceicu-Hasdeu connected the name of the river Moldova with Mulde, a river in Saxony, and Moldau, the German name of the river Vltava in the Czech Republic, and claims that all derive from the Gothic word for "dust" - Mulda.

[The Khagan]

The extinct eastern branch of Germanic peoples must have left a pretty striking genetic legacy, however I have extreme doubts of how much of a genetic impact the Varangians/Rus had, at least in comparison to the former Scandinavian/Germanic outposts in Eastern Europe. As far as I know, the Rus were more or less a dominant, small aristocratic group whose system of governance above genetics and culture, which was Slavicised over time, was the only tangible legacy they left.