Evidence of a Germanic presence in eastern Europe

[Ibericus]

Yes, I know. Germanics today are a hybrid of IE germanic tribes of R1b's, european indigenous I1, and IE R1a from eastern Europe

[Agrippa]

"This mutation is also widely common among most of the Siberian people. This seems to confirm the widely said assumption that the homeland of the Finno-Ugrics was in Siberia and that they moved west from there and mixed with Indo-Europeans. But gene-scientists say that this isn't so simple. According to them, it seems that the Arctic Y-DNA line has traveled from Eastern-Europe to Siberia, not the other way around."

In the end, it's all about this question, where and when N and it's types originated. Now I read most of the time they came originally from further East and where not the Europoid sphere when we can speak at least of Proto-Europoids or already Europids in West Eurasia.

My idea is, that Finno-Ugrians are native to Northern- and Eastern-Europe, and Indo-Europeans are foreign to Western- Northern- and Eastern- Europe. They're not foreign to the Balkan area.

Well, point is, Finno-Ugrians, especially Baltic Finns, have significant European/Indo-European influences - Nordoid to a large degree.

Indo-Europeans being most likely the product of a Neolithic - Southern-Eastern Mesolithic fusion, with some of the most important steps being done in South Eastern Europe and Eastern Europe-Western Central Asia.

Now from there they expanded and from there even before the Indo-Europeans similar, more Europid and more progressive variants, expanded too, as they did from Anatolia as well.

The Northern Cromagnoids were partly much more archaic, but showed almost no Mongoloid tendency. This foreign tendency appeared later and this might be the element which brought the Finno-Ugrian language, which would make even more sense if they being texted for yDNA haplogroup N and N's origin further East being proven. I'm waiting for that...

Haplogroup I1 is not germanic. IE Germanics were R1b.

Indo-European ethnolinguistic ancestors of the Germanics were most likely originally more R1a and R1b than I1, yes, but Germanics proper, once we can speak of them as a distinct entity out of the general Indo-European context, had I1 from the start, so we can consider it being mostly Germanic - with the possible exception of older Northern European strata elsewhere which predate any Germanic expansion.

[Bloodeagle]

Yes, I know. Germanics today are a hybrid of IE germanic tribes of R1b's, european indigenous I1, and IE R1a from eastern Europe

Except the chronology of influence is indigenous I1 first, Corded-Ware R1a1 second, then finally Hallstatt Culture R1b1 last.

The Corded Ware R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 aborigines to create the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE).

[Agrippa]

I'm not that sure about any sort of Hallstatt Culture people's influence in Northern Europe, especially not R1b carriers if looking at the distribution even less so.

But probably I'm just wrong

[Bloodeagle]

I'm not that sure about any sort of Hallstatt Culture people's influence in Northern Europe, especially not R1b carriers if looking at the distribution even less so.

But probably I'm just wrong

The haplotype associated with and the language of the Hallstatt Culture did have a significant influence on the Germanic people.

These Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic R1b people had settled around the Alps by 2300 BCE, and judging from the spread of bronze working, reached Iberia by 2250 BCE, Britain by 2100 BCE and Ireland by 2000 BCE. This first wave of R1b assumably carried R1b-L21 lineages in great number, as these are found everywhere in western, northern and central Europe. A second R1b expansion took place from the Urnfield/Hallstatt culture around 1200 BCE, pushing west to the Atlantic, north to Scandinavia, and as far east as Greece and Anatolia (=> see Dorian invasion below).

The new Bronze Age culture flourished around the Alps (Unetice to early Hallstatt) thanks to the abundance of metal in the region, and laid the foundation for the classical Celtic culture. The Celtic Iron Age (late Halstatt, from 800 BCE) may have been brought through preserved contacts with the the steppes and the North Caucasus, notably the Koban culture (1100-400 BCE).

The Alpine Celts of the Hallstatt culture are associated with the S28 (a.k.a. U152) mutation, although not exclusively. The Italic branch (also S28/U152) is thought to have entered Italy by 1200 BCE, but there were certainly several succesive waves, as attested by the later arrival of the Cisalpine Celts. The Belgae were another S28/U152 branch, an extension of the La Tène culture northward, following the Rhine, Moselle and Meuse rivers.

One common linguistic trait between Italic and Gaulish/Brythonic Celtic languages linked to the Hallstatt expansion is that they shifted the oiginal IE *kw sound into *p. They are known to linguists as the P-Celtic branch. It is thought that this change occured due to the inability to pronounce the *kw sound by the pre-Indo-European population of central Europe, Gaul and Italy, who were speakers of Afro-Asiatic dialects that had evolved from a Near-Eastern language. The Etruscans, although later incomers from the Levant, also fit in this category. It has recently been acknowledged that Celtic languages borrowed part of their grammar from Afro-Asiatic languages. This shift could have happened when the Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers moved from the steppes to the Danube basin and mixed with the population of Near-Eastern farmers belonging to haplogroups E-V13, T, G2a and J2b. However, such an early shift would not explain why Q-Celtic languages developed in Ireland and Iberia. It is more plausible that the shift happened after the Italo-Celts had first expanded across all western Europe. The S28/U152 connection to P-Celtic suggests that the shift took place around the Alps and Italy after 1200 BCE.

R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106) is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and northern Germany. Its presence in other parts of Europe can be attributed to the 5th- and 6th-century Germanic migrations. The Frisians and Saxons spread this haplogroup to the British Isles, the Franks to Belgium and France, and the Lombards to Austria and northern Italy. The high concentration of S21/U106 around Austria hints that it could have originated there in the Hallstatt period, or originated around the Black Sea and moved there during the Hallstatt period. In fact, southern Germany and Austria taken together have the highest diversity of R1b in Europe. Besides S21, the three major first level subclades of R1b1b2a1b (L21, S28, M167) are found in this area at reasonable frequencies to envisage a spread from the Unetice to Hallstatt homeland to the rest of western Europe.
Source

[Thulsa Doom]

Some people are asking for evidence of east-Germanic people in eastern Europe so I decided to do a thread covering the topic. Some notable Germanic tribes of east Europe are Bastarnae, Scirii & most notably the Goths. Here's a map of Gothic archaeological sites:

In the good old days, when the grass was still green and the chicks was good looking, Magna Scythia was known as Greater Swithiod.

Snorri Strulason Kringla heimsis....
It is said that the earth's circle which the human race inhabits
is torn across into many bights, so that great seas run into the
land from the out-ocean. Thus it is known that a great sea goes
in at Narvesund (1), and up to the land of Jerusalem. From the
same sea a long sea-bight stretches towards the north-east, and
is called the Black Sea, and divides the three parts of the
earth; of which the eastern part is called Asia, and the western
is called by some Europa, by some Enea. Northward of the Black
Sea lies Swithiod the Great, or the Cold. The Great Swithiod is
reckoned by some as not less than the Great Serkland (2); others
compare it to the Great Blueland (3). The northern part of
Swithiod lies uninhabited on account of frost and cold, as
likewise the southern parts of Blueland are waste from the
burning of the sun. In Swithiod are many great domains, and many
races of men, and many kinds of languages.

So what are the haplogroups associated with Germanic speaking people?
I1a, I1c, which are found in trace amounts in eastern Europe.

Since the ethnogenisis of the Germanic people was in central Scandinavia, the haplogroups associated with Germanic speaking people are the same as for the Swedish population of today.

[Thulsa Doom]

I would like to point out that the Germanics that we are speaking of are of a later age and culture than the pre Germanic I1 aborigines of Germany. Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.

Drivel from Eupedia.com

Germans are of a hybrid culture. The original I1 inhabitants of Germany were mostly slaughtered by the invading IE tribes!

It has already been proven that R1b, R1a and I2b2 was in the pre-germanic Germany before 1000 BC and no I1 has still been found. See

[Bloodeagle]

It has already been proven that R1b, R1a and I2b2 was in the pre-germanic Germany before 1000 BC and no I1 has still been found. See

Drivel from Thulsa Doom

I made no claims to the rarity of haplogroup I1 in the Germanic lands!
Try reading my post before coming to your conclusion about my post. Check my sources and read the article.

[Thulsa Doom]

I made no claims to the rarity of haplogroup I1's in the Germanic lands!
Try reading my post before coming to your conclusion about my post. Check my sources and read the article.

Now, I have seen the Eupedia site and it is full of speculations and it´s certainly not a source. The idea that the whole western population of men was replaced by R1b men thousand years after the agricultural revolution is highly speculative indeed.

You claimed that there was no other haplogroups in Germany then I1

Germans are of a hybrid culture. The original I1 inhabitants of Germany were mostly slaughtered by the invading IE tribes!

I pointed out that it was more likely that the I1 came from the north later on.

[Bloodeagle]

Now, I have seen the Eupedia site and it is full of speculations and it´s certainly not a source. The idea that the whole western population of men was replaced by R1b men thousand years after the agricultural revolution is highly speculative indeed.

You claimed that there was no other haplogroups in Germany then I1



I pointed out that it was more likely that the I1 came from the north later on.

I laid no claims that I1 was the only haplogroup in Germany, nor did I claim that there were no R1a1 or R1b1 in Germany before 1000 BC.

I did claim that I1 was found prior to the arrival of the R1a1 and R1b1 peoples and cultures to Germany and that all of the many people still found in Germany and Scandinavia that carry the I1 haplotype are descended from a single man that lived approximately 5000 BCE!

Looking at the maps of the I1 percentages in Europe, I will agree with you that the I1 haplogroup did probably come from the north, later on. Probably from descendants of a single man that lived around 5000 Bce. A man who must have escaped a rather brutal IE takeover of Europe.