Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project

[Don Brick]

^Estonians seem to score quite low Baltic Finnish percentages, not much more than Scandinavians actually. And compare this to my 49 % score which is probably already unusually low for a Finn. Could this be more evidence that Estonians are in many ways genetically closer to Latvians and Lithuanians? Here´s an interesting take on the subject.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...ot-like-finns/

[Äike]

^Estonians seem to score quite low Baltic Finnish percentages, not much more than Scandinavians actually. And compare this to my 49 % score which is probably already unusually low for a Finn. Could this be more evidence that Estonians are in many ways genetically closer to Latvians and Lithuanians? Here´s an interesting take on the subject.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...ot-like-finns/

Genetic drift has caused the Finns to be distant to everyone, while the Finnic people in Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and NW-Russia haven't had that bottleneck effect. It is very logical that Estonians are more similar to Finnic people living next to them, than to Finnic people across the gulf. Livonians were culturally, linguistically and genetically the most similar Finnic group to the Estonians. I am certain that you cannot find any Latvian who wouldn't have several Livonian ancestors if you back in time.

6000 years ago, the territories of modern Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were completely Finnic.

There are 2 Baltic-Finnish groups, a northern one and a southern one. The southern one mostly is assimilated into the Baltic populations, except the Estonians who still exist. I am guessing that the genetic base for the Baltic-Finnish people was taken from the northern group of Baltic-Finnish people and I am guessing that they were all Finns too.

EDIT: I did read your article and looks like the writer of it agrees with me.

Finally, I would like to introduce one alternative model which I find plausible. Before the rise of the Indo-European language group the center of gravity of the Finnic languages was almost certainly much further to the south and east, and that Finland itself was on the perimeter. By this model the Indo-Europeanization of most Finnic speaking peoples left the Estonians as a rump. The Finns to the north of the Gulf of Finland were already then distinct from the Estonians and other southerly peoples before this process occurred. The reason I present this model is that there is evidence that Russification up to the present day has come at the expense of the Finnic language groups.

Finns are perimeter Baltic-Finnish people, while Estonians aren't perimeter Baltic-Finnish people, just all the Finnics south and east of us got assimilated.

[Pallantides]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/02/f...ixture-11.html

However, as always, caveats apply. For instance, if there's an ancestral group missing, ADMIXTURE will, in a way, find the next best thing. This might be why some of the Americans with Native admixture scored higher than expected Finnish scores in the European run. At first glance this might seem a bit odd, but it actually makes sense, because an American of North European extraction with a few per cent of Amerindian ancestry will come out fairly similar to a Finn with some North Eurasian admixture.

[Äike]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/02/f...ixture-11.html

I see that Baltic-Finnish = Finnish.

Just because most of the Baltic-Finnish people south and east of them have been assimilated, doesn't make them the most similar group to the original/central Baltic-Finnish people, as Don Draper's article pointed out. Finns are peripheral Baltic-Finnish people, when compared to the now assimilated Baltic-Finnish people.

[Agrippa]

Modern Thai are, as a completely different example, also less representative of the old Tai people which lived further North, so some Southern Chinese are "more typically Tai" than modern Thai people.

So while I'm not saying this is for sure the case here, it remains a possibility.

But probably the Finnish people in the Baltic area just got more Indo-European influence and less of the Northern Eurasian one in comparison, but are not more typically Finnish neither.

[Äike]

Modern Thai are, as a completely different example, also less representative of the old Tai people which lived further North, so some Southern Chinese are "more typically Tai" than modern Thai people.

So while I'm not saying this is for sure the case here, it remains a possibility.

But probably the Finnish people in the Baltic area just got more Indo-European influence and less of the Northern Eurasian one in comparison, but are not more typically Finnish neither.

Agrippa, you have proved on numerous occasions that you practically do not know a thing about North-Eastern Europe, one good example is that you recently found out that the Saami are actually European. All your hypothesizes about this region are mostly wrong. If I were you, I would want to keep that "intelligent poster" image you have and not post about matters in which you are strongly lacking.

If the foreign Indo-European immigrants wouldn't have migrated to Northern-Europe, then the Baltic-Finnish "core" area would be somewhere south-east of Finland, I guess. If those now non-existent(assimilated) Baltic-Finnish people would have been the base of the Baltic-Finnish sample in Polako's project, then Americans with Amerindian ancestry wouldn't have high scores in certain areas. Out of all the Baltic-Finnish populations, the Finns are the only ones who have had to push the Saami population northwards, while assimilating them too and we all know that the originally completely European Saamis have some minor Siberian/Samoyed influence which then transferred to other populations.

[Agrippa]

Agrippa, you have proved on numerous occasions that you practically do not know a thing about North-Eastern Europe, one good example is that you recently found out that the Saami are actually European. All your hypothesizes about this region are mostly wrong. If I were you, I would want to keep that "intelligent poster" image you have and not post about matters in which you are strongly lacking.

First of all, I always said that the modern Sami are mixed, yet the Lappid type as such is racially more borderline. Since this is an important part of the racial make up of this people they are in that sense less European than lets say Swedes, Germans, Poles, Spaniards etc., that's what I said.

If the foreign Indo-European immigrants wouldn't have migrated to Northern-Europe, then the Baltic-Finnish "core" area would be somewhere south-east of Finland, I guess. If those now non-existent(assimilated) Baltic-Finnish people would have been the base of the Baltic-Finnish sample in Polako's project, then Americans with Amerindian ancestry wouldn't have high scores in certain areas. Out of all the Baltic-Finnish populations, the Finns are the only ones who have had to push the Saami population northwards, while assimilating them too and we all know that the originally completely European Saamis have some minor Siberian/Samoyed influence which then transferred to other populations.

I wasn't even saying that this is no option, I just said that there are more options than that, so I don't get the point of your attitude to attack me out of nothing.

You just can't prove it for sure by now, or can you?

[Loki]

Could North Euro be further divided into West and East?

[Grumpy Cat]

I am in Polako's next run, will post results.

I will be surprised if I do not get a high Basque percentage.

[Franz]

It isn’t necessarily real admixture but allele patterns. I looked at the data with software, and I see odd things like one of the Portuguese samples (PT4) showing 7% Finnish. It's probably not Finnish but something else or by chance. That’s only one sample though.

The Basque cluster peaks to 100% in the French Basque. It’s high in the Spanish, Portuguese, and some French. The Mediterranean cluster peaks to 100% in the Sardinians. It’s second highest in the Italians. The Southeast European cluster appears highest in the Turks and Jews but not in the Southeast Europeans, so that’s a bad name for it. It’s 59% in the one Georgian sample. The Baltic/Finn cluster peaks to 100% in the Finns but not the Balts. North Russians and Estonians are the next highest. The North European cluster is highest in the Lithuanians with Belorussians coming second. Then, it becomes sporadic among other elasticities.

The Baltic/Finn cluster should be changed to Finnish. The Mediterranean cluster should have a more meaningful name, but it’s only a name. The Southeastern European cluster makes no sense. It’s not clear at all what this cluster means like the others, or what he did. It’s 0 in the Finns, Estonians, Basque, Sardinians, Lithuanians, and a few of the Scandinavians. He included only one Georgian and no Armenians. It would’ve been interesting to see West Asians, but the run appears to be more European oriented. Some of the samples didn’t add to 100% or 1. I’ve sorted the data, and the range is between 98-102%. For example, PL1 sums to 1.02 and CA5 sums to 0.98. I would like to see more clusters. Dienekes will be doing 64 clusters. With more clusters, we would be able to notice more differences among the samples. Polako does have an agenda though.

Osweo:

Basque 11%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 0%
North Euro 86%

^^ Mr Nazi poster boy!

... but Osweo is so swarthy.

In the link they also wrote:

Compare with the comments of Dienekes:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/02...change-in.html

The real result is the mosaic pattern in the fringes, meaning just a higher rate of survival for the pre-Neolithic elements from the start.

Actually this study proves the tremendous impact of the Neolithic settlers, even at the fringes with the mosaic model, but a higher survival race and transition from less altered Mesolithic populations there as well.

People always confuse Neolithic and Mesolithic. The craniometrical evidence of West Asian origin for Central Europeans is interesting but not surprising as they genetically show it. The study showed what they measured, but they didn’t show the actual cranial measurements I was really hoping to see. Facial measurements would be interesting, and agriculture would’ve surely altered the face and jaw. The hunter-gatherers that adapted agriculture through cultural diffusion probably experienced physical changes, but surely not in the same way as the ones with actual genetic input from the farmers.

I´m such a mutt in comparison to Aino and most other Finns.

Here´s me:

Baltic Finnish 49 %
North Euro 38 %
Basque 6 %
Mediterranean 4 %
Southeast Euro 3 %

If you (FI6) are Southwestern Finnish, then it's really not unexpected.

One Finn is 7% Finnish, then the rest range from 35% to 100%. That one sample with 7% is also 28% Southeastern European which is way too high compared to the others, so I don’t think he or she is entirely Finnish. Maybe Polako made a mistake? It’s not from someone that submitted his/her raw data to him but from a dataset.

According to the spreadsheet Lithuanians and Belarusians have the highest 'North Euro' score, while Finns have the highest 'Baltic Finnish' score.

The Belarusians range from 74% to 89% with an average of 80.2… with n=9. The Lithuanians range from 81% to 95% with an average of 89.3 with n=10. What happened to NO4? Some Germans are missing. Maybe they requested withdrawal?

Well, this doesn't wonder neither, since in Finns you have to substract a stronger Northern Eurasian component and Lit-Bela have less Neolithic influences. This was obvious from the archaeological record already, but in all those cases I wonder where the samples were taken from and whether future results will present us new differentiations, which I would always expect in Lithuania simply from West to East, in Belarussia more complex, but f.e. also along the rivers vs. "the less accessible and favourable woodlands".

Additionally, I wouldn't wonder about this "Northern component" being split up in the future, with more data available, because the Neolithic expansion happened to a large part from inside of the older spectrum, yet there was a differentiation present if comparing f.e. the Eastbaltic area with that of Southern Russia and the Ukraine.

I guess there might be something to find here too, further distinguishing the "real North Eastern Mesolithic" from those elements which were related, but expanded from the South in the Neolithic and Metal Age eras.

If this is recognisable in the archaeological record, why not in the genes? So far most of the time, if the archaeological record and typological analysis showed something clearly, the better the genetic tests were, the more they showed of this...

With more clusters, it should be more apparent. From “Migration waves to the Baltic Sea region” by T. Lappalainen et al. (2008), 43.9% of the 164 Lithuanians had (M46/Tat, P105). I tend to think of those mutations as Northeastern, but that’s only Y-DNA.

The 10 Lithuanians and 9 Belorussians were from “Genome Wide Structure of the Jewish People” by D. M. Behar et al. (2010, July 8). He included all them for the run. The Belorussians experienced more gene flow and were less isolated than the Lithuanians. It does depend on where the samples were taken. The Russians in that study came from Li et al. (2009). They were all from Vologda Oblast, and they had North Asian admixture and not representative of Russians in other areas. Polako labeled those 25 as North_Russian.