What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?

[Vojvod]

That's possible but,
Why is Finland not germanic while they would have one the highest amount of "proto-germanic" origin ?

Because those proto-Germanics were assimilated into the Finnish poplulations. Possible they killed off indigenous males. Children learn their language from their mothers, hence mother tongue. I1-M253 marker stems from a male born in present day Denmark circa 5500 years ago.

[Äijä]

Finnish I1, can it descend from pre-Saxon ancestry?

It has gone almost year since I last time visited FtDna's I1-project, being quite tired of the usual pathetic ydna discussion. Now after a little pushed by another Finnish guy I took a look and noticed that the SNP-based phylogenetic tree shows more upstream matches for Finnish Bothnians than a year ago. Most of new matches are from England which obviously mirrors the testing activity more than enything else. Anyway, it looks like the Bothnian I1 descends from something like Anglo-Saxons, but we have to date it, accoring to the clade age (made by Ken Nordtvedt and others), to the time before Anglo-Saxon British migrations. Here are those connected directly to Bothnians, They form an own class between all other I1 branches and Bothnians.

http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...-from-pre.html

The history of Finnish I1 was pretty long unkown and was a target of speculations although many Finns being aware of the Finnish history were able to see more and understand the course of history, actually pretty well (on our Finnish forums treating the Finish history was a member calling himself Moses Leone. He stated 8 years ago that the Finnish I1 was older than usually supposed and bound to Iron Age migrations). What we know now more is based on new Y-chromosome related information. It shows us hidden history of male ancestral lines thousands years back. And what can we now say for sure based on the new information? It is the same as many hints have given for us to presume already years ago. So we don't know now more basics, we only can broaden our knowledge with new facts.

Keeping in mind the Finnish history, not only genetics but also archaeological and linguistic evidences (known already around 200-300 years) it is undeniable that the Bothnian group is closely related to a certain Central European clade, known by the ydna-mutation CTS2208. Out of touch of this mutation the relation can be confirmed also by STR-statistics. STR-statistics can give misleading information if used to explain a single individual result more than hundreds years back in time, but statistical results are still valid. The more we have high classified samples the more history can be plumbed.

http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...om-pre_18.html

[Äijä]

Germanics are highly associated as a fairly even meshing of "Old Europe" and Indo-European Europe. Finland might be Finnic speaking, but it isn't entirely of Siberian-stock...it will be still much moreso so-called "Mesolithic Euro". and this subclade of "I" is very Mesolithic.

The Finnic part of Finns comes from Estonia via Volga-Kama during the Bronze Age so calling it as Siberian-stock population has no backing.

[Figaro]

The Finnic part of Finns comes from Estonia via Volga-Kama during the Bronze Age so calling it as Siberian-stock population has no backing.

Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...

Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...

[Äijä]

Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...

Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...

The Finnish I1 are pretty specific, I would like to hear suggestions of potential tribes they could match in history.

[Vojvod]

Not so much; I was kind of going back on that old mantra...

Either way, how bout 'dem Germanics...

It is obvious I1 is proto-Germanic. Scandinavian languages are the true proto-Germanic languages. Modern day German is around 65% indo-European for example, and closer to Slavic as opposed to Scando tongues, rest is proto-germanic.

[Vojvod]

The Finnish I1 are pretty specific, I would like to hear suggestions of potential tribes they could match in history.

Jutes, Angles most likely, where I1 originated from. Don't confuse Goths with Swedish Gotland. They were from Jutland, same pronounciation as Goths, Jutes names present day Gotland in Sweden.

[Lawalye]

R-U106

The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.

From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S21-U106

[Äijä]

It is obvious I1 is proto-Germanic. Scandinavian languages are the true proto-Germanic languages. Modern day German is around 65% indo-European for example, and closer to Slavic as opposed to Scando tongues, rest is proto-germanic.

This is supported by the fact that earliest language contact to proto-Germanic is proto-Finnic, it narrows the possible Urheimat region from Finland to Sweden.

[Lawalye]

How did I1 become Germanic ?

From 2800 BCE, a large-scale cultural and genetic upheaval hit Scandinavia with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans from Eastern Europe, who introduced the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age practically without Neolithic transition. The first Indo-Europeans to reach Scandinavia were the Corded Ware people from modern Russia, Belarus and Poland, who are thought to have belonged predominantly to haplogroup R1a. These people shared some similar maternal lineages as Scandinavian I1 inhabitants, including mtDNA haplogroups U2e, U4 and U5, but also brought many new lineages such as H2a1, H6, W and various subclades of I, J, K and T.

The second major Indo-European migration to Scandinavia was that of haplogroup R1b, the branch that is thought to have introduced Proto-Germanic languages, as an offshoot of the Proto-Celto-Germanic speakers from Central Europe. R1b probably entered Scandinavia from present-day Germany as a northward expansion of the late Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE).


According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis, first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, Proto-Germanic was a hybrid language mixing Indo-European (R1b, and to a lower extent R1a) and pre-Indo-European (native Nordic I1) elements. This hybridisation would have taken place during the Bronze Age and given birth to the first truly Germanic civilization, the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml