Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project

[Agrippa]

At the same time, I have to point out that Northern-Asia/Siberia has a significant Europid component through the Finno-Ugric expansion into Northern-Asia/Siberia, from Europe. This is visible in their genetic heritage even now, thus Finns pull towards North-Asia because of 2 reasons: 1. North-Asians have ancient European/Finno-Ugric ancestry. 2. Some Finns have Saami, thus Samoyedic, thus Siberian ancestry.

I don't believe in the "Finno-Ugrians from Europe" tale, yet this is not even so important for that question, since languages and migrations are worse to reconstruct than genetic and racial relationships, which can be proven objectively now.

Sibirids (aboriginal Northern Asians) are considered a transitional racial type or even better group, spectrum of variants which have at least Proto-Europoid elements even as far as the North East of Asia actually.

Yet if you compare Lithuanians, which have about ass much "old European" in their genome, it is clear that the Finns are drawn to the Sibiroid populations because of the Mongoloid contribution and not the other way around.

Sure, if you compare the Sibiroids with the Tungus people without Europid admixture (even most Mongols have slight Europoid admixture), they too are closer to Europeans relatively speaking.

But as I said, especially the Lithuanian vs. Finnish comparison makes the case clear and what we see on this graph is primarily the Finnish deviation towards the Sibiroids.

Would be great to have some Lapps and some other Samoyedic than Nganasans as well as Tungid populations for comparison.

[Äike]

I don't believe in the "Finno-Ugrians from Europe" tale, yet this is not even so important for that question, since languages and migrations are worse to reconstruct than genetic and racial relationships, which can be proven objectively now.

The main theory, accepted by every linguist/scientist is that the Uralics/Finno-Ugrians originate from Eastern-Europe, the Volga river region and expanded from there.

If you disagree with that, then you're saying that we came from modern-day southern-Ukraine and are the native Upper Paleolithic people of most of Europe.

Sibirids (aboriginal Northern Asians) are considered a transitional racial type or even better group of variants which have at least Proto-Europoid elements even as far as the North East actually.

Yet if you compare Lithuanians, which have as much or even more "old European" in their genome, it is clear that the Finns are drawn to the Sibiroid populations because of the Mongoloid contribution and not the other way around.

Sure, if you compare the Sibiroids with the Tungus people without Europid admixture (even most Mongols have slight Europoid admixture), they too are closer to Europeans relatively speaking.

But as I said, especially the Lithuanian vs. Finnish comparison makes the case clear and what we see on this graph is primarily the Finnish deviation towards the Sibiroids.

You are making assumptions by Polako's "one-man" amateurish works. This extremist thinks that the Indo-Europeans are the native people of Finland and predate the Finno-Ugrians.

Every professional genetic research, which is usually done by dozens of scientists, says that the Finns resemble the Upper Paleolithic Europeans the most(genetically and anthropologically).

[Agrippa]

You are making assumptions by Polako's "one-man" amateurish works. This extremist thinks that the Indo-Europeans are the native people of Finland and predate the Finno-Ugrians.

Every professional genetic research, which is usually done by dozens of scientists, says that the Finns resemble the Upper Paleolithic Europeans the most(genetically and anthropologically).

In all studies, not just that of Polako - Finns deviate strongly from most other Europeans and so so in a Sibiroid direction.

You might sugarcoat this fact this or that way, but fact is, Finns AND Lithuanians have a very strong "old European component", but Finns have more Sibiroid influences and Lithuanians more Neolithic.

Now even if percentage wise Finns would have very slightly more of the "old European component", Lithuanians would be still closer to them because the Neolithic-Southern component is closer related to "old European" than Sibiroid.

Even a very minor Sibiroid contribution will result in a stronger deviation.

That is like comparing one who is quarter Sicilian with one who is one eighth Negrid. The admixture in the quarter Sicilian might be higher percentage wise, but since the Sicilian component is much closer to North Eastern European than Negrid, the deviation in the Negrid admixed one eighth person will still be larger...

So it is with Finns, principally, which is why Lithuanians are better for being used as an example for "old European", even if saying the Neolithic and later coming Indo-European components are stronger in them.

[Äike]

In all studies, not just that of Polako - Finns deviate strongly from most other Europeans and so so in a Sibiroid direction.

You might sugarcoat this fact this or that way, but fact is, Finns AND Lithuanians have a very strong "old European component", but Finns have more Sibiroid influences and Lithuanians more Neolithic.

Now even if percentage wise Finns would have very slightly more of the "old European component", Lithuanians would be still closer to them because the Neolithic-Southern component is closer related to "old European" than Sibiroid.

Even a very minor Sibiroid contribution will result in a stronger deviation.

That is like comparing one who is quarter Sicilian with one who is one eighth Negrid. The admixture in the quarter Sicilian might be higher percentage wise, but since the Sicilian component is much closer to North Eastern European than Negrid, the deviation in the Negrid admixed one eighth person will still be larger...

So it is with Finns, principally, which is why Lithuanians are better for being used as an example for "old European", even if saying the Neolithic and later coming Indo-European components are stronger in them.

Finns went through a bottle-neck at one point, that's why they deviate so much.

Finns are a genetic isolate. It could be said that all other Europeans have Finnish(native Upper Paleolithic) genes but Finns don't have all the genes(Neolithic) found in other Europeans.

Still, Finns are more native European than any other group. For example, Haplogroup U5 is estimated to be the oldest mtDNA haplogroup in Europe and is found in the whole of Europe at a low frequency, but seems to be found in significantly higher levels among Finns, Estonians and the Sami.

Anthropology:
Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons in terms of anthropological measurements.

and now to the crypto-Finnics. Lithuanians are something like Finnic+some Baltic/Indo-European/Neolithic.

Don't be fooled by Polako's researches, that call the Lithuanians just "Baltic". The Finno-Ugric/Finnic genes dominate in the Lithuanians and at best they're a Finnic-Baltic mix, while in reality they're more Finnic than anything else. Of course they have a lot of "old European" genes, if they don't have much Indo-European/Neolithic/Middle-Eastern influence. Lithuanians are the second most FinN1C Europeans. The "old European" background in them is explained by the native Finnic populations that they have assimilated during their expansion into our part of Europe.

[Agrippa]

Well, the detectable Sibiroid might have been increased by isolation and genetic drift too, but it had to be introduced in any case and was not indigenous nor part of the "old European component".

[Loki]

Polako's new K=4 and K=5 results, this time with Americans included as well.

Me:

K=4
Southern + Western European: 45.4%
North Sea: 39.2%
Baltic: 5.4%
Finnish: 9.9%

K=5
Finnish: 9.7%
Southern + Western European: 39.3%
East European: 12.3%
Southern Baltic: 4.4%
North Sea: 34.2%

====================================
National averages, worked out by Day Tripper on ABF:

K=4 AVERAGES

BY
Southern + Western European: 14.1%
North Sea: 8.9%
Baltic: 75.8%
Finnish: 1.1%

CA
Southern + Western European: 34.3%
North Sea: 57.0%
Baltic: 6.1%
Finnish: 2.6%

DE
Southern + Western European: 30.9%
North Sea: 45.1%
Baltic: 22.4%
Finnish: 1.5%

DK
Southern + Western European: 20.3%
North Sea: 69.3%
Baltic: 3.7%
Finnish: 6.7%

EE
Southern + Western European: 1.9%
North Sea: 21.7%
Baltic: 51.6%
Finnish: 24.9%

ES
Southern + Western European: 90.6%
North Sea: 5.6%
Baltic: 2.2%
Finnish: 1.6%

FI
Southern + Western European: 2.3%
North Sea: 14.3%
Baltic: 6.7%
Finnish: 76.6%

FR
Southern + Western European: 57.6%
North Sea: 33.4%
Baltic: 6.1%
Finnish: 2.9%

HU
Southern + Western European: 40.0%
North Sea: 19.9%
Baltic: 35.5%
Finnish: 4.6%

IE
Southern + Western European: 24.2%
North Sea: 70.6%
Baltic: 4.5%
Finnish: 0.7%

LT
Southern + Western European: 1.8%
North Sea: 13.7%
Baltic: 83.9%
Finnish: 0.6%

NL
Southern + Western European: 19.0%
North Sea: 71.7%
Baltic: 2.6%
Finnish: 6.7%

NO
Southern + Western European: 1.7%
North Sea: 81.3%
Baltic: 7.1%
Finnish: 10.0%

North_Russian
Southern + Western European: 5.2%
North Sea: 2.7%
Baltic: 59.4%
Finnish: 32.7%

PL
Southern + Western European: 18.2%
North Sea: 21.9%
Baltic: 58.5%
Finnish: 1.4%

RU
Southern + Western European: 12.1%
North Sea: 8.6%
Baltic: 63.8%
Finnish: 15.4%

SE
Southern + Western European: 7.0%
North Sea: 63.9%
Baltic: 10.2%
Finnish: 18.9%

UA
Southern + Western European: 17.1%
North Sea: 14.5%
Baltic: 60.5%
Finnish: 7.9%

UK
Southern + Western European: 26.3%
North Sea: 67.9%
Baltic: 3.3%
Finnish: 2.6%

US
Southern + Western European: 31.5%
North Sea: 57.0%
Baltic: 8.2%
Finnish: 3.4%

K=5 AVERAGES

BY
Finnish: 0.5%
Southern + Western European: 9.1%
East European: 37.2%
Southern Baltic: 49.5%
North Sea: 3.6%

CA
Finnish: 3.2%
Southern + Western European: 27.7%
East European: 6.8%
Southern Baltic: 12.5%
North Sea: 49.8%

DE
Finnish: 1.7%
Southern + Western European: 24.3%
East European: 19.3%
Southern Baltic: 16.2%
North Sea: 38.4%

DK
Finnish: 7.7%
Southern + Western European: 15.2%
East European: 9.3%
Southern Baltic: 8.6%
North Sea: 59.2%

EE
Finnish: 26.3%
Southern + Western European: 2.6%
East European: 14.4%
Southern Baltic: 46.2%
North Sea: 10.5%

ES
Finnish: 2.2%
Southern + Western European: 84.2%
East European: 5.3%
Southern Baltic: 3.3%
North Sea: 4.9%

FI
Finnish: 74.4%
Southern + Western European: 2.1%
East European: 6.4%
Southern Baltic: 6.0%
North Sea: 11.2%

FR
Finnish: 2.8%
Southern + Western European: 50.8%
East European: 9.6%
Southern Baltic: 8.4%
North Sea: 28.4%

HU
Finnish: 4.7%
Southern + Western European: 36.2%
East European: 19.0%
Southern Baltic: 26.6%
North Sea: 13.4%

IE
Finnish: 1.1%
Southern + Western European: 15.6%
East European: 11.3%
Southern Baltic: 9.1%
North Sea: 63.0%

LT
Finnish: 0.7%
Southern + Western European: 0.7%
East European: 14.9%
Southern Baltic: 82.2%
North Sea: 1.5%

NL
Finnish: 6.3%
Southern + Western European: 10.3%
East European: 17.6%
Southern Baltic: 0.6%
North Sea: 65.1%

NO
Finnish: 10.1%
Southern + Western European: 0.2%
East European: 17.0%
Southern Baltic: 6.0%
North Sea: 66.8%

North_Russian
Finnish: 23.7%
Southern + Western European: 1.2%
East European: 64.5%
Southern Baltic: 9.2%
North Sea: 1.4%

PL
Finnish: 1.0%
Southern + Western European: 14.0%
East European: 33.5%
Southern Baltic: 36.6%
North Sea: 14.9%

RU
Finnish: 10.2%
Southern + Western European: 7.0%
East European: 49.2%
Southern Baltic: 28.5%
North Sea: 5.1%

SE
Finnish: 19.9%
Southern + Western European: 3.6%
East European: 9.9%
Southern Baltic: 12.8%
North Sea: 53.7%

UA
Finnish: 6.8%
Southern + Western European: 14.2%
East European: 33.2%
Southern Baltic: 38.5%
North Sea: 7.3%

UK
Finnish: 3.7%
Southern + Western European: 19.1%
East European: 7.6%
Southern Baltic: 9.7%
North Sea: 60.0%

US
Finnish: 3.8%
Southern + Western European: 24.8%
East European: 10.4%
Southern Baltic: 11.6%
North Sea: 49.3%

[Äike]

Well, the detectable Sibiroid might have been increased by isolation and genetic drift too, but it had to be introduced in any case and was not indigenous nor part of the "old European component".

"old European"/Finno-Ugric ancestry among the Siberians has raised the Finns' affinity with them.

+Saami(they have Samoyedic ancestry) ancestry in some rare cases has also raised this affinity.

Polako's new K=4 and K=5 results, this time with Americans included as well.

My K4:

4.7% Southern + Western-European(previous researches have shown that it's just Western-European and I don't have any Southern-European)
22.6% North Sea
48% Baltic/southern-Finnic
25.6% Finnish

EE
Southern + Western European: 1.9%
North Sea: 21.7%
Baltic: 51.6%
Finnish: 24.9%

This other Estonian in the research has always scored 0% Western-European, my Western-European score has raised the Estonian average(there are only 2 participants)

[Agrippa]

"old European"/Finno-Ugric ancestry among the Siberians has raised the Finns' affinity with them.

Erm, that doesn't work out and is some sort of distorted logic if looking at the facts.

Because the "old European" is present in other Europeans too, only the specifically Sibiroid component is higher in Finns.

[Äike]

Erm, that doesn't work out and is some sort of distorted logic if looking at the facts.

Because the "old European" is present in other Europeans too, only the specifically Sibiroid component is higher in Finns.

As I said, it's rather explained by the European/Finno-Ugric component in the "Sibiroids".

[Agrippa]

As I said, it's rather explained by the European/Finno-Ugric component in the "Sibiroids".

And why doesn't that show up as much in the "converted Finno-Ugrians" (your words more or less) like the Lithuanians and being highest among those most Mongoloid influenced even among Finns?

This Sibiroid component is shown in all tests as coming from outside and the opposite is a general Proto-Europoid and Europid component in Sibiroids, which is not even as much related to Finns alone...