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Thread: Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër View Post
    Even the haplotard site Eupedia says the same about I2a1b-Din:

    of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.



    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
    Read my most recent comment - also, South Slav tribal formation is clearly to do with the branch of Slavs that essentially chased down I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër View Post
    Yeah, 3 Slavic y-dna haplogroups in an overwhelming number of 110 Albanian Ghegide samples

    Dema's J2b1 sticks out like a sore thumb between the 34 J2b2 samples


    Mtdna may be a different story, but who cares about that?

    HaHa i am actually really good camouflaged there, you can barley see that there is j2b1 among so many j2b2 I Bet no one even notices that! > : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër View Post
    It's not that simple. Check my previous post.

    Indo-Europeans integrated other haplogroups in them in Europe. The I2a1b-Din is new in the Balkans, no older sample found.
    Dude, I never said it was indigenous to the Balkans, just that it was to Europe. R1a is not. Slavic tribal identity is, but not originally with I2a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Read my most recent comment - also, South Slav tribal formation is clearly to do with the branch of Slavs that essentially chased down I2a.
    In 600AD tons of Slavs of Northeastern Europe already had plenty of diversified I2a1b clades. Only the I2a1b-Din one reached the Balkans 1400 years ago.

    Fucking idiot, Slavs are a combination of I2a1b and R1a cultures. Possibly some more minor influences from later stages. You are talking of 4000+ years ago when no I2a1b sample has been found in the Balkans whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër View Post
    In 600AD tons of Slavs of Northeastern Europe already had plenty of diversified I2a1b clades. Only the I2a1b-Din one reached the Balkans 1400 years ago.
    Due to S. Slav migrations that now contained a large amount of I2a1, sure, but obviously proto-Slavic identity predates S. Slav identity. If I2a1 is Slavic, explain it's high concentration in Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Due to S. Slav migrations that now contained a large amount of I2a1, sure. If I2a1 is Slavic, explain it's high concentration in Sardinia?
    It's another clade, which split atleast 10 000 years ago, way before Slavs existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I never said it formed in the Balkans, I just said it was indigenous European - my guess would be I2a1 was driven to the Balkans by Indo-European invasions until they hit the Adriatic Sea, at which point they mixed with the mostly R1a invaders. Show me evidence proto-Slavs contained a non-insignificant amount of Y DNA I2a1 - then I'll stfu.
    According to Eupedia I2 seem to be Slavic haplogroup after all:

    The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency. The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age and seems to have had intensive contacts with the Steppe culture before the expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and Central Europe (see histories of R1a and R1b). From 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. It can easily be imagined that Cucuteni-Trypillian people became assimilated by the Yamna neighbours and that they spread as a minority lineage alongside haplogroups R1a and R1b as they advanced toward the Baltic with the Corded Ware expansion. Alternatively, I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs.
    The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a (small but fast-growing) population.
    Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

    IDK for credible is this, but sound fairly decent explanation.

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    This is the map i made with all the samples i had, more than 50.

    I didn't tag names since it would have been a clusterfuck but as a general tendency southerners cluster more south and the most northern shifting as i said before are Albanians from Montegro.

    Regarding the map, the most:

    NORTHERN : Albanian from Kosovo
    WESTERN: Albanian from Montenegro
    EASTERN : Albanian from Macedonia
    SOUTHERN: Albanian from the south


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    Plus the fact that modern Albanians plot right at Bronze Age Montenegrin sample, explains that I2a1b & R1a high baltic & eastern euro admixtures were never there before.

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    How its possible that on map Macedonia is displayed to have less I2a1b then S Albania???

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