Dodecad Ancestry Project

[Agrippa]

So according to you the Georgians are 98% european, that's insane considering they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks, and it's higher than most europeans. Besides, the Basques don't have this west-asian component. Yes, this component probably came in the neolithic waves from the near-east, carrying haplogroups E,J,G, mostly. It's not authoctnous europeans. So, the purest europeans are Basques, making them 99% european by adding only South and North components.

Look, the general West Asian component, whether best exemplified by Georgians and whether this approach is hundert percent correct is open to debate, is a common root and source for many Europeans.

Fact is just, that those "which stood behind" developed in a different direction from the time the original component made it into Europe. So they are not as European, because of the racial change taking place.

Genetically however, their component is not that foreign to Europe and calling it non-European, if it is there for thousands of years and fully Europid, not even associated with foreign racial forms and traits, it just not applicable.

South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.

The Basques are an isolate which in itself can hardly be representative of Europeans now or thousands of years ago, considering that they are non-Indo-Europeans...

They are only representative of one important and original European part - among others.

Among the others West Asian or at least related elements were present since the Mesolithic, latest early Metal Age, so...

[StonyArabia]

e.
South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.
..

South West Asian cluster has a higher drag toward SSA Africa than any other Caucasoid cluster safe for the Berber one. Though it seems to be distantly related to the Med component, and not the West Asian cluster, since the West Asian cluster seems to be related distantly to the North European cluster, but it does not show a drag to SSA Africa. Today the South West Asian cluster peaks in the Bedouins, Saudis, Yemeni Jews and Iraqis who usually score from 100% to 85% South West Asian. Reaching Northern Iraq it falls dramatically to the West Asian cluster. It's one of the very unique "West Eurasian" clusters, and as well most distant to Europeans.

[Ibericus]

Genetically however, their component is not that foreign to Europe and calling it non-European, if it is there for thousands of years and fully Europid, not even associated with foreign racial forms and traits, it just not applicable.

Then we should apply the same to other components, like the Southwest-asian. In conclusion, you are confusing caucasoid with european. Yes, west-asian is a caucasoid component, no doubt, but it's not european.

South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.

Why later ? Im pretty sure this southwest asian component in Europeans was carried by neolithic people, the near-east farmers, which is whre it peaks actually. Exactly the same times as the West-Asian component, and carried by the same people who carried haplogroups E, J, etc. This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.

The Basques are an isolate which in itself can hardly be representative of Europeans now or thousands of years ago, considering that they are non-Indo-Europeans...

well, that's not true. Paternally they are very indo-european, having 90% of haplogroup R1b-M269. Plus, the isolation factor is not an explanation of why the basques lack the west-asian component.

[Sikeliot]

The West Asian component reaches 30% in both Greeks and southern Italians (and up to 40% in people from Crete), which are areas that are the most Neolithic in Europe (also Albania would likely be similar but I haven't seen data for them) and have the most of haplogroups E and J as stated above.

[Agrippa]

South West Asian cluster has a higher drag toward SSA Africa than any other Caucasoid cluster safe for the Berber one.

That is for sure, considering the geographical proximity and history of the region and populations, it makes perfect sense.

Though it seems to be distantly related to the Med component, and not the West Asian cluster, since the West Asian cluster seems to be related distantly to the North European cluster, but it does not show a drag to SSA Africa.

Well, that's the important point I referred to. Modern Europeans, especially the Indo-European component, is largely a mix of West Asian + Mesolithic Eastern Europeans.

If you can distinguish the archaic Mesolithic component of the fringe regions, isolate it, you get a Northern component which is closest to West Asian.

Today the South West Asian cluster peaks in the Bedouins, Saudis, Yemeni Jews and Iraqis who usually score from 100% to 85% South West Asian.

That is the Afro-Asiatic/Semitic group.

Reaching Northern Iraq it falls dramatically to the West Asian cluster. It's one of the very unique "West Eurasian" clusters, and as well most distant to Europeans.

Indeed, because the Northern Near Eastern component is very close to Europeans and was much more so before becoming mixed with different elements, like South West Asians.

Then we should apply the same to other components, like the Southwest-asian. In conclusion, you are confusing caucasoid with european. Yes, west-asian is a caucasoid component, no doubt, but it's not european.

It is one of the larger components in Europe, so you might say it WAS coming from somewhere else, but so did the other components to a large degree too.
Don't forget, just because the other components were essentially cut off doesn't mean they were present in Europe so much longer...

Why later ? Im pretty sure this southwest asian component in Europeans was carried by neolithic people, the near-east farmers, which is whre it peaks actually. Exactly the same times as the West-Asian component, and carried by the same people who carried haplogroups E, J, etc. This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.

Well, probably not only later, but also along different pathways. It is typical however, that the overlap between these two components is far from complete, with some regions having much higher West Asian : South West Asian ratios than others and vice versa.

It seems quite obvious to me, that a large portion of West Asian and related elements, now already merged into the "Northern coloniser group", therefore tearing it towards West Asian, while the "Fringe groups" being further removed from it, came early on, even in the Mesolithic and spread strongly on the land route, early on.

While the West Asian had more a spread along the coastal routes and presumably later. This is just my suggestion based on various factors, but it might be proven someday

This is one of the maps showing the distribution of J1:


Further inland it came mainly along the Danube, otherwise it is practically everywhere coastal.

I'm pretty sure South West Asian will correspond more to that, than to the standard Neolithic markers of the West Asian group.

well, that's not true. Paternally they are very indo-european, having 90% of haplogroup R1b-M269. Plus, the isolation factor is not an explanation of why the basques lack the west-asian component.

So, what else do you think is the reason?

All Indo-Europeans seem to have two components: Northern European (Eastern European) and West Asian.

Everything else varies from region to region...

And how do you know that R1b-M269 must have been Indo-European?

A group with 90 percent of another group's parternal lineages would be much more likely to actually become part of that or so heavily influenced in language and culture...

[Ibericus]

Well, I don't see the relation between the west-asian and northern european components. The levantines, like Syrians, have 50% of west-asian yet 0% of northern-european. How do you explain that ? On the other hand, Basques lack any west or southwest asian, yet they are 40% northern-european. Im pretty sure the west-asian and southwest component came to Europe at about the same period. The known least neolithic countries in Europe, like Spain or Portugal, have also the least west-asian of all Western Europe. While the known countries with more neolithic admixture have the highest west-asian (Sicilians, South-Italians, Greeks, Balkans). Also, the least southwestasian of all southern Europe is in Spain.

[Sikeliot]

Southwest Asian confuses me, because it's higher in Central Italy even than in Greece, and I've seen some Northern Italians with more SW Asian than some Greeks.. and then Sicilians and south Italians have in some cases 18-20% of this component but their frequency of haplogroup J1 is what, 5%? Almost makes me wonder if we should look to mtdna for the answer instead.

[alzo zero]

This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.

Just wondering what haplogroup is associated with the African components instead (in Europe highest among the Iberians).

Southwest Asian confuses me, because it's higher in Central Italy even than in Greece, and I've seen some Northern Italians with more SW Asian than some Greeks..

Who?

[Ibericus]

Just wondering what haplogroup is associated with the African components instead (in Europe highest among the Iberians)

And what the fuck has this anything to do with the west-asian component that we were talking about ?

[alzo zero]

And what the fuck has this anything to do with the west-asian component that we were talking about ?

No need to swear my excitable friend. Some (most) clades of E are almost exclusively African so it's better to make it explicit with what kind of E we are dealing with.