Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

[Kelmendasi]

Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.

True but Ghegs usually got wives from different Albanian clans or villages. Also Ghegs are considered more homogenous than Tosks but I think that we are equally as homogenous as each other but Ghegs for a fact were isolated more

[Wrong]

Don't start discussion on superiority, for as far as we know, aboriginal Europeans win that title in every regard. It's just that quantity beats quality very often.

That can be applied to the I2a1b-"Dins" arriving in scores to the Balkans.

I'm far from a haplogroup supremacist, the other thread was simply trollish about J2b2. Not sure how some people take obvious troll threads so seriously.

[Herr Abubu]

How much MENA ancestry tosk Albanians score??

None or insignificant amounts.

[cosmoo]

That can be applied to the I2a1b-"Dins" arriving in scores to the Balkans.

I'm far from a haplogroup supremacist, the other thread was simply trollish about J2b2. Not sure how some people take obvious troll threads so seriously.

I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".

[Wrong]

I2a1b couldn't be said to have arrived "in scores" compared to native Balkanites.
I'm not haplo-nationalist either, just pointing out to some logical fallacies used to spread idea of particular one's "superiority".

The Slavs were numerous enough in foraging population when they migrated to cause a significant impact and change in demographics, I2a1b-din and R1a combined.

The Roman northern military frontiers have long since been breached by Hunic and Avar raids. Avars brought numerous of Slavs with them taking advantage of this.

[Scholarios]

We don`t know really how many individual cases of this 104 Tosk Albanians were with this kind of problematic I2a-etc. I have asked many times this, but nobody can give me an answer. I don`t know the reason.

Because you seem to have the winning combination of delusional coping mechanism + poor reading and cognitive comprehension, so it is pointless to explain to you the concept of "sample". Can you please give a reason why it is impossible that an Albanian may not have some Slavonic component? Is the power of your national myth so potent you are incapable of accepting evidence even slightly to the contrary? Or are you some kind of imbecile who believes some kind of genetic alchemy- Slavic dna and Albanian are somehow repellent to one another? Western-backed Stooge.

Because tosks are not tribal and never went to far way from their village to get a wife while ghegs always had to ship in women from across region and beyond borders too. Like skenderbeg's mother for example. Even today, amongst ghegs there are more "foreign" wives in comparison to tosks.

That is a good point, but I think many Tosks were more "cosmopolitan" and therefore intermarried with Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians more often. At least with Tsams.

Epic thread,lol
It only means that the rest of balkans & europe expects albanians to be so pure that finding 10 indivdual cases of I2a feels like a tragic news to them and they feel responsible to hold us accountable for it. Which i can understand

To be honest, look at Greeks, they are the same. The unbelievable stubborn stupidity of Catgeorge for instance. We must be the same people.

[Laberia]

The Slavs were numerous enough in foraging population when they migrated to cause a significant impact and change in demographics, I2a1b-din and R1a combined.

The Roman northern military frontiers have long since been breached by Hunic and Avar raids. Avars brought numerous of Slavs with them taking advantage of this.

Do you understand that this map is totally an idiot map? In VII-VIII century North Albania and Kosova servi?
Practically nothing was known about the Serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

[Scholarios]

Do you understand that this map is totally an idiot map? In VII-VIII century North Albania and Kosova servi?
Practically nothing was known about the Serbs before 1136 when Tihomir, who was merely a shepherd, became Grand Zupan.
In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...
quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

Begone, witless worm , and hear the truth that shall set you free at last:

It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. [6] This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. [7]

By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]

What had happened to the local populations of the western and central Balkans during and after the Slav invasions? Something is known about the urban inhabitants, but much less about the people in the countryside. Despite the apocalyptic tone of early Byzantine writers, who give the impression that all civilization came to an end here in about 600, there is good evidence that the main cities survived (or were revived), just as they had done after earlier sackings. Refugees from central Balkan towns such as Nis and Sofia fled to the safety of Salonica at first, but many must have gone back home later. [10] The main towns on the Dalmatian and northern Albanian coastline, too, retained their Latin-speaking populations and stayed under Byzantine rule. (For naval and commercial reasons, Durres was the most important Byzantine possession on the entire Adriatic coast of the Balkans.) [11] But outside the major cities there are signs of decline and contraction; typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existenc

Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)

[Ujku]

That is a good point, but I think many Tosks were more "cosmopolitan" and therefore intermarried with Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians more often. At least with Tsams.



.

Not really , Chams married other chams .. My grandpa a cham has the typical Albanian ( more gheg) look (tall , dinaric nose , slim ) like most chams i've met in my life.
My Lab grandfather was Isa Boletinis look alike .
This whole Tosk Albanians look differently than Ghegs is total bullshit..
Also we didn't marry with Greeks of south Albania (which were mainly Hellenised Vlachs ) although we lived together we only married other Albanians same goes for ghegs.

[Scholarios]

Not really , Chams married other chams .. My grandpa a cham has the typical Albanian ( more gheg) look (tall , dinaric nose , slim ) like most chams i've met in my life.
My Lab grandfather was Isa Boletinis look alike .
This whole Tosk Albanians look differently than Ghegs is total bullshit..
Also we didn't marry with Greeks of south Albania (which were mainly Hellenised Vlachs ) although we lived together we only married other Albanians same goes for ghegs.

This is not about looks at all, so there is no reason to go there. I don't know what your oral tradition is about this, but i respect it, even if I am skeptical. I don't have time to go into it deeply, but I did recall enough to retrieve this quote about Northwest Greece and South Albania:

Hellenizing (male) Vlachs, for example, tended to marry hellenized (female) Vlachs or poor Greekbrides, thus establishing the domestic language as Greek. Muslim Albanians might take Greek wives,
maintaining some features of a bicultural household at least in the first generation. Greek men might inprinciple marry only other Orthodox. Contemporary observers insist that linguistically distinct groups, while
distinguished on the plane of language or occupation, might also share much in style of life: "The Greek,Slav, Roumanian, Albanian of the Mountains resemble one another more than they do their compatriots of the plains" (Ancel 1926:135, quoted in Recatas 1934:2). Likewise, the Greek tenant farmer who was not a merchant (and not, according to Hobhouse, "dressed as a European" [1971:28]) resembled his Bulgar counterparts in his poverty and subjection to the Turk. Kitroeff (1993:13) cites Margaritis Dhimitsas's four volume Ancient Geography of Macedonia (1874): "The Slavo-Bulgarians stand on the bottom rung of intellectual development, and are almost exclusively engaged in agriculture and cattle-raising.... Among
[the Slavs] the Serbs are noted for their care over intellectual and political development and the Montenegrins for their heroism."

and that:

Observers writing during the Ottoman period recognized something like a linguisticallycoded caste structure with hereditary specializations. "The merchant," one source reported, "is a 'Greek', the intellectual a 'Serb', ... the shepherd a 'Vlach', the laborer a 'Bulgar' " (Recatas 1934:14).13 The blacksmiths and music-makers (for example, those who lived outside the Aromanian town of Metsovo) were by definition Gypsies.14 Note that it is the merchant who is a Greek and not the Greek who is, inevitably, a merchant. While linguistic or ethnic categories constituted the indices of a division of labor, individuals might migrate into these categories from diverse points of origin. For their own reproduction, linguistic and regional differences require some degree of in-marriage, but in northwest Greece there was also a good deal of systematic out-marriage (systematic in the sense that certain patterns of status migration were maintained).15

Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999)

And we all know that Muslim(Albanian, Turkish, or Greek) males could and did intermarry with whoever they pleased, as a general rule- in Epirus as elsewhere.