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Of 400 pages from this book only one and half of page is about "Steppe invaders" spread in western Europe. That's what i mean when i told about disregard of this question from Kurgan hypothezis supporters. However despite the common prejudice that single graves and round barrows were brought to west of Europe only with "steppe intrusion", almost all parts of the north pontic neolithic burial practice like: red ochre using, round tumulus over the grave, burial chamber of stone slabs (Maikop culture), crooked position of body etc. much more ancient in west and spread in eastern Europe later. Those burials in Brit Isles, that Gimbutas considered as result of the 1st wave steppe invaders activity were just remnants of mesolithic/neolithic transitional cultures, like Campigny, Rinyo-Clacton, Peterborough cultures etc. There're different tribes in west Europe which practiced both way burial rites either single and collective as well.
Have you got information, what's the full list of analyzed samples from western Europe (Spain,France, Brit.Isles) that fall into 4000-2500 BC period of time?Originally Posted by Genetiker
No, it isn't, because none of the early farmers were R1b-M269. Some were R1b-V88, but none were R1b-M269.
And again, ATP2, ATP3, ATP7, ATP9 and ATP20 had significant Eastern European autosomal DNA, which none of the early farmers had.
"Bell Beaker Behemoth" should be published in May 2017, so just wait a bit and everything will be clear. But rumours say that R1b appears in Iberia together with Steppe admixture. So connection is obvious.
The only question is when exactly did they come to Iberia.Seems like IE were incomers in Atlantic, but that question is not the lone. Another one is: what's their route from east. For a while sea way from Near East, along Atlantic coastline and European rivers is much more credible than "steppe Yamna-Vucedol culture's horse riders" invasion hypothezis, not least because of the fact that Gimbutas and other almost entirely ignore itSo it is indeed possible that some Indo-Europeans came to Iberia already before 3000 BC.
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Yes, Yamna samples consist of 45% CHG/INF ie Near Eastern Neolithic farmers and Irish Rathlin samples have got 70-80% of MN where ENF is the main component. Taking together with Iranian Neolithic in "Steppe" DNA this proportion is absolutely dominates there. So most likely that IE spread (Kentum branch at least) is better correlates with this huge majority, than with only "Steppe" minority. That could be early Neolithic colonists or later Megalithic ones, or brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk, any variation is more realistic than Kurgan hypothezis. And the only way in all these three migration waves was from Mediterranean sea along Atlantic coast to northern/eastern direction
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This is the breakdown for Rathlin.
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdfThese analyses, taken with the PCA and ADMIXTURE results, indicate that the Irish Bronze Age is composed of a mixture of European MN and introgressing Steppe ancestry (9, 10). To estimate the proportion of Yamnaya to MN ancestry in each Irish Bronze Age sample, we took three approaches. First, from
ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1), we examined the green Caucasus ancestry component. We presume an ultimate source of this as the Yamnaya where it features at a proportion of 40% of their total ancestry. In our three Irish Bronze Age samples, it is present at levels between 6–13%, which, when scaled up to include the remaining 60% of Yamnaya ancestry, imply a total of 14–33% Yamnaya ancestry and therefore 67–86% MN in the Irish Bronze Age. Second, for each Bronze Age Irish individual, we calculated the proportion of MN ancestry by using the ratio f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; X, Dai)/f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Gok2, Dai), which gave estimates between 72 ± 4% to 74 ± 5%, implying again a substantial Yamnaya remainder. Third, we followed the methods described in Haak et al. (9), which use a collection of outgroup populations, to estimate the mixture proportions of three different sources, Linearbandkeramik (Early Neolithic; 35 ± 6%), Loschbour (WHG; 26 ± 12%), and Yamnaya (39 ± 8%), in the total Irish Bronze Age group. These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry.
The thing is there is no R1b-M269 in Europeans during the Neolithic. It is definitely Steppe related. It is so clear and obvious.
Rathlin's Eurogenes K13 and K15.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.40
6 Amerindian 2.20
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Norwegian @ 5.854991
2 Swedish @ 6.378155
3 Danish @ 6.435699
4 North_Dutch @ 6.943228
5 North_German @ 7.111557
6 Irish @ 8.086287
7 Orcadian @ 8.527667
8 West_Scottish @ 8.822106
9 Southeast_English @ 10.981000
10 Southwest_English @ 11.587136
11 North_Swedish @ 12.113091
12 South_Dutch @ 14.523604
13 West_German @ 15.031170
14 East_German @ 17.276731
15 Austrian @ 17.773823
16 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.165777
17 French @ 21.226280
18 Hungarian @ 21.971560
19 South_Polish @ 25.624912
20 La_Brana-1 @ 26.125484
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Swedish @ 5.763251
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Swedish +25% Swedish +25% West_Scottish @ 5.718463
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.654887
2 Danish + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673533
3 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.695946
4 Irish + Swedish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.708336
5 Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.714194
6 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.717242
7 Swedish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.718463
8 Irish + North_German + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.726860
9 Danish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.727204
10 Danish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.735286
11 North_German + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.738239
12 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.744429
13 Danish + Danish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.755604
14 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.760739
15 Danish + Danish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.763251
16 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.771631
17 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.772011
18 Danish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.800724
19 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.815938
20 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.816245
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_German @ 8.570560
2 Danish @ 9.199459
3 Irish @ 9.273491
4 West_Scottish @ 9.632721
5 Southeast_English @ 10.713849
6 North_Dutch @ 10.812980
7 Orcadian @ 12.363866
8 Southwest_English @ 12.692083
9 South_Dutch @ 13.515372
10 Norwegian @ 13.539064
11 Swedish @ 13.852389
12 North_Swedish @ 14.337133
13 West_Norwegian @ 14.958194
14 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.931392
15 East_German @ 16.537271
16 West_German @ 16.948147
17 Austrian @ 19.163883
18 French @ 19.201525
19 Finnish @ 20.197750
20 La_Brana-1 @ 21.321207
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.413251
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 7.791201
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.791089
2 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.791201
3 La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.810342
4 Irish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.810678
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.922435
6 Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.980188
7 La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.996135
8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 8.002673
9 Danish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 8.004673
10 Danish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 8.007087
11 Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish @ 8.020887
12 Danish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.028337
13 Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 8.034504
14 Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.055216
15 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German @ 8.064316
16 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 8.069336
17 La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.069387
18 North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.080923
19 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English @ 8.087984
20 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 8.140745
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Caucasus ancestry component consists of CHG+Iranian Neolithic. Thus joint Neolithic part +Iranian One in Rathlin's samples is about 90%These analyses, taken with the PCA and ADMIXTURE results, indicate that the Irish Bronze Age is composed of a mixture of European MN and introgressing Steppe ancestry (9, 10). To estimate the proportion of Yamnaya to MN ancestry in each Irish Bronze Age sample, we took three approaches. First, from
ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1), we examined the green Caucasus ancestry component. We presume an ultimate source of this as the Yamnaya where it features at a proportion of 40% of their total ancestry. In our three Irish Bronze Age samples, it is present at levels between 6–13%, which, when scaled up to include the remaining 60% of Yamnaya ancestry, imply a total of 14–33% Yamnaya ancestry and therefore 67–86% MN in the Irish Bronze Age. Second, for each Bronze Age Irish individual, we calculated the proportion of MN ancestry by using the ratio f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; X, Dai)/f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Gok2, Dai), which gave estimates between 72 ± 4% to 74 ± 5%, implying again a substantial Yamnaya remainder. Third, we followed the methods described in Haak et al. (9), which use a collection of outgroup populations, to estimate the mixture proportions of three different sources, Linearbandkeramik (Early Neolithic; 35 ± 6%), Loschbour (WHG; 26 ± 12%), and Yamnaya (39 ± 8%), in the total Irish Bronze Age group. These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry.
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Impossible to say what language did they speak. the only thing i'm sure it's the last archaeologically and anthropologically visible migration in Western Europe, this is confirmed by genetics as well. So the western IE (Italo-Celtic group) must be either among these Bell Beakers or they were here before this migration in some neolithic cultures. We need more late neolithic samples not just from Atlantic, but also from eastern Mediterannean and Pontic areas. Have to wait "Bell Beaker Behemoth"
Last edited by Fantomas; 04-30-2017 at 02:39 AM.
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