Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

[Loki]

Loki, why do you keep repeating this? just curious

Because I believe it, I guess.

[ADonkeyBrain]

I think Florin Curta's theories of ethnogenesis of slavs (they only became "slavs" once they crossed the Danube) are interesting, but kind of outdated. I2a1b dinaric is a little bit odd (but getting increasingly certain its spread is linked to dark age migrations in east europe) but there is still r1a1 that pretty well establishes a fairly localized origin of east-central europe for incubator of proto-slavs. whether they added other paleobalkanic, germanic, and pannonian folks to their numbers (as is common in warrior tribal societies) obvious.

Απ'όσο θυμάμαι όχι ακριβώς όταν πέρασαν το Δούναβη αλλά ναι, σε επαφή με το Βυζάντιο κατά τις Ρωμαϊκές λίμες στο Δούναβη. Βέβαια ο Curta μιλούσε για εθνογένεση με την έννοια του "οι άνθρωποι που εμφανίζονται συγκεκριμένα ως 'Σ(κ)λάβ(ην)οι' στις πηγές μας, ο υλικός πολιτισμός τους κλπ" και όχι "τα γονίδια των ομιλητών της πρώιμης Σλαβικής κατά την επέκταση τους" ή "οι άνθρωποι της γλωσσικά Σλαβικής urheimat". Είναι κάπως παρεξηγημένο έργο γι'αυτούς ακριβώς τους λόγους (πόσο μάλλον σε φόρα τύπου apricity lol). Δεν εννοώς πως κάνεις κάτι τέτοιο εσύ (ή ο nightrider) εδώ, προφανώς.

Μου θύμισες πως πρέπει να το διαβάσω ξανά κάποια στιγμή γιατί είναι λεπτομερές και ιδιαίτερο έργο όσον αφορά αυτό το θέμα. Πάντως, ναι, φαίνεται πως ο Curta υποτίμησε αρκετά (to put it mildly) το μέγεθος της μετανάστευσης εκείνη την εποχή, σύμφωνα με τα σημερινά δεδομένα περί απλοομάδων τουλάχιστον. Το έργο του και οι απαντήσεις στους κριτικούς του είναι ενδιαφέροντα σε κάθε περίπτωση.

Το Din όντως φαίνεται μεταγενέστερο, τουλάχιστον στο μεγαλύτερο μέρος των Βαλκανίων. Δε νομίζω να αλλάξει κάτι αλλά ποιος ξέρει, θα δούμε.

True but iirc it was found in Corded Ware Germany too. It could have already been in the Balkans back then, its frequency around here is still quite low anyway.

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

[Bardylis]

But now we know that R1a1 was already present in Bronze Age Bulgaria.

That's a totally different subclade to the ones found in Slavic speakers. It is Indo European or most likely asimilated Sarmatian. And we already knew there was some r1a and I2a in ancient balkans spread by the Thracians. None of it is i2a - DIN or linked to slavs or Germanics. Theres non-slavic i2a and r1a found in Albanians and Greeks. This is no surprise.

Because it could still be native Balkanic (maybe northwestern) that rapidly expanded at some point in time.

I2a-Din came from Poland Ukraine ca. 1500 years ago. it rapidly expanded into the Balkans with Slavic invading tribes led by Avars/ Huns. They pillaged and enslaved the indigenous population.. Attila is known as one of the biggest killers in history.

Dardania / Dalmatia was depopulated of its indigenous population and they retreated into Malsia, both latin and Albanian speakers. Malsia already had a indigenous population that spoke the same language. Vlachs are just latinized proto-Albanians.


That I2a-din is not native , This was proven already years ago by Ken Nordtvedts research when they found it's ancestral clade in Poland.

In ancient Croatia there have been found typical Albanian ydna's like J2b2 L283 and R1b-Z2103 that are barely found in south slavs but no i2a din found but you still believe its native. Human stupidity has no limits as Albert Einstein once said.






I2a-din in south albania is from subjogated and asimilated Bulgarians. Local Albanians defeated the Bulgarian empire and took hostages and later asimilated them.

[QUOTE] Slavic expansion the way most people imagine it is another bullshit theory that relies on barely any evidence. We know for sure they migrated to Greece/Eastern Roman Empire but we don't know the exact origin of the people that did this. They could very well be similar to modern South Slavs. [QUOTE]

There's plenty of evidence. I2a-Din peaks in West Balkans due to a founder effect. This has been repeated 100 times. Your posts just repeat the same old myths like everyone else.

Even Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians etc. could have spoken an earlier version of Slavic for all we know.

They spoke proto-Albanian.. pre - Slavic toponyms are explained in Albanian with the same meaning in Ilyrian . Notice when I say the same meaning. The only way Thracians , Ilyrian or Albanian is linked to Slavic is through Balto Slavic which again is linked to indo european expansion . Sarmatian was linked to Ilyrian and Thracians . The latter were even refered to as Indo Iranians . This all from indo european expansion . and that indo iranian r1a found makes sense too.

According to Johann Georg von Hahn in 1854, 19th century historical linguistics concluded that the names Dardanoi and Dardania were derived from a proto-Albanian word, meaning pear tree (dardha in modern Albanian the definite form, dardhë indefinite form < PAlb *dardā[8]), in view of the fact that toponyms related to fruits or animals are not unknown in the region (cf. Alb. dele/delmë "sheep" supposedly related to Dalmatia, Ulcinj in Montenegro < Alb. ujk, ulk "wolf" etc.). Opinions differ whether the ultimate etymon of this word in Proto-Indo-European was *g'hord-, or *dheregh-.[9]

These are with same meaning as in the Ilyrian language. Nothing to do with Slavic unless its indo european connection .


All i2a , r1a etc descendant from eachother obviously but over thousands of years and population movements they split and developed subclades and different branches and absorbed other populations in the process.

Some of 20th-century linguists[who?] have connected the name Bardylis with Albanian i bardhë "white",[6][7] There is another opinion that connects the name Bardylis with both Alb. i bardhë "white" and Alb. yll "star". According to Stuart Edward Mann, the second version is a folk etymology.[8] According to German linguist Paul Kretschner the name Bardylis is connected with the word "bardulos", which according to him means "grey" in the language of the Messapii in southern Italy.[9]

in Albanian it means white . In Ilyrian Bard also meant white . Messapian has also been linked to Albanian and were most likely Ilyrian migrants.

[Bardylis]

Because I believe it, I guess.

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.

[Drawing-slim]

But your belief is based on absolutely nothing other than wishful thinking . We rather have the contrary evidence.

We have J2b2 L283 that peaks in Gheg Albanians found in Dalmatia . Ghegs have very little I2a din . Also DArdanians under Romans had dalmatian latin names.

i2a din is a founder effect and its only coincidence its not the slavic r1a.

Not to mention these ancient samples found in yugoslavia plot east of tuscans / North italy same as Albanians . unless these samples are not throughly mixed with the big 3 hg, neolithic and yamnaya that came to form ancient balkan.


Most people here are propagandists trying to make ancient balkan slavic and comitting cultural marxism and cultural genocide upon the actual indigenous people . What has happened to Albanians , Vlachs etc is of course a cultural genocide and the result are modern balkanic politics and wars.

some south slavs are mixed with indigenous people , these were same genetically as Albanians but they can't admit this because they are retarded chauvunists .

they rather try to remove us from history because their ancestors comitted cultural genocide upon us and even ethnic genocide . they claim our lands as theirs such as kosovo and macedoni. in order to do this they need to remove us from history and disassociate us with anything ancient balkan and claim it as their own history. but genetics and language say otherwise.

Even the Greeks take part in this behavior.

Very very good post. Truth spoken.

[nightrider+]

If you can recall at some point, mention that sample. Z93 has been found so far in Srubnaya and Pazyryk as far as I remember (not that unexpected I suppose). It might have been somewhat more important in the past and lowered due to turnover or it might just be an unrepresentative finding representing a low overall % like today. The guy did have higher steppe than even the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample.

Οι μη-ελληνόφωνοι αρχαίοι λαοί των Βαλκανίων πάντως δε βλεπω πως θα μπορούσαν να μιλάνε "αρχαιότερη μορφή των Σλαβικών", εκτός αν δεν κατάλαβα πως ακριβώς το εννοείς. Ινδοευρωπαϊκές διαλέκτους που είχαν πολλά ισόγλωσσα πιθανώς. Ακόμη και η Αλβανική φαίνεται να έχει αρκετά λεξικά ισόγλωσσα με τις Βαλτοσλαβικές. Γενικά οι επεκτάσεις συγκεκριμένων γλωσσών σίγουρα ισοπέδωσαν την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ποικιλία και μας δίνουν διεστραμμένη εικόνα αλλά η πρόγονος της μεταγενέστερης γνωστής Σλαβικής σίγουρα μιλιόταν βόρεια των Βαλκανίων.

I wasn't talking about Z93 but the usual European subclades, I didn't phrase it right.

There is little evidence on the Ancient Blakans languages, I don't see why they can't have spoken some language related to modern Slavic. Whatever its origins, we also have very little idea about when and how it spread. People love taking things for granted when there's not nearly enough evidence.

[Wrong]

I2a1b-Din has incredibly low diversity in the Balkans, it spread recently from the north/east during the middle ages.


This has been discussed one billion times.

[Wrong]

I2a2 is almost completely absent in South Slavs:

[Wrong]

The only R1a that has been found in the Ancient Balkans is of the Z93 clade, which is not the Medieval Slavic clade most of Balkans is abundant of now.

[Wrong]

Slavonic Medieval R1a clades:


M458:



Y93: