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Thread: Ancient Egyptians on GEDmatch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pahli View Post
    Weren't those Fayum folks actually Greek-speakers from Lower Egypt?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    Weren't those Fayum folks actually Greek-speakers from Lower Egypt?
    I'm not sure if all of them are Greek. Think some of them are Egyptian too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pahli View Post
    Those are greek paintings of greeks/romans ruling Egypt. Look at the paintings art style for goodness sakes. But your wiki link even tells us this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_...eum_18.9.2.jpg

    Eutyches - greek

    While painted cartonnage mummy cases date back to pharaonic times, the Faiyum mummy portraits were an innovation dating to the Coptic period at the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt.[1]
    The portraits covered the faces of bodies that were mummified for burial. Extant examples indicate that they were mounted into the bands of cloth that were used to wrap the bodies. Almost all have now been detached from the mummies.[2] They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Greco-Roman artistic traditions than Egyptian ones.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fayum-34.jpg
    Mummy portrait of a young woman, 3rd century, Louvre, Paris.
    In parallel, more scientific engagement with the portraits was beginning. In 1887, the British archaeologist Flinders Petrie started excavations at Hawara. He discovered a Roman necropolis which yielded 81 portrait mummies in the first year of excavation. At an exhibition in London, these portraits drew large crowds. In the following year, Petrie continued excavations at the same location but now suffered from the competition of a German and an Egyptian art dealer. Petrie returned in the winter of 1910/11 and excavated a further 70 portrait mummies, some of them quite badly preserved.[7] With very few exceptions, Petrie's studies still provide the only examples of mummy portraits so far found as the result of systematic excavation and published properly. Although the published studies are not entirely up to modern standards, they remain the most important source for the find contexts of portrait mummies.


    Late 19th and early 20th century collectors[edit]
    In 1892, the German archaeologist von Kaufmann discovered the so-called "Tomb of Aline", which held three mummy portraits; among the most famous today. Other important sources of such finds are at Antinopolis and Akhmim. The French archaeologist Albert Gayet worked at Antinoopolis and found much relevant material, but his work, like that of many of his contemporaries, does not satisfy modern standards. His documentation is incomplete, many of his finds remain without context.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinopolis
    Antinopolis (Antinoöpolis, Antinoopolis, Antinoë) (Greek: Ἀντινόου πόλις, Coptic ⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲱⲟⲩ Antinow, modern Sheikh 'Ibada) was a city founded at an older Egyptian village by the Roman emperor Hadrian to commemorate his deified young beloved, Antinous, on the east bank of the Nile, not far from the site in Upper Egypt where Antinous drowned in 130 AD
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim
    " Herodotus mentions the temple dedicated to Perseus and asserts that Chemmis was remarkable for the celebration of games in honor of that hero, after the manner of the Greeks, at which prizes were given; as a matter of fact some representations are known of Nubians and people of Punt (southern coastal Sudan and the Eritrean coast) clambering up poles before the god Min. Min was especially a god of the desert routes on the east of Egypt, and the trading tribes are likely to have gathered to his festivals for business and pleasure at Coptos (which was really near Neapolis) even more than at Akhmim. Herodotus perhaps confused Coptos with Chemmis. Strabo mentions linen-weaving and stone-cutting as ancient industries of Panopolis, and it is not altogether a coincidence that the cemetery of Akhmim is one of the chief sources of the beautiful textiles of Roman and Christian age, that are brought from Egypt.[1]


    Today, mummy portraits are represented in all important archaeological museums of the world. Many have fine examples on display, notably the British Museum, the Royal Museum of Scotland, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and the Louvre in Paris.[8] Because they were mostly recovered through inappropriate and unprofessional means, virtually all are without archaeological context, a fact which consistently lowers the quality of archaeological and culture-historical information they provide. As a result, their overall significance as well as their specific interpretations remain controversial.[8]



    http://www.metmuseum.org/press/exhib...om-roman-egypt
    ANCIENT FACES: MUMMY PORTRAITS FROM ROMAN EGYPT
    Spoiler!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Y-DNA

    Sample Period Date BC Haplogroup
    JK2134 Pre-Ptolemaic 776–569 - J1a2a2-Z2329
    JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 - J2b1-PF7314
    JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 - E1b1b1a1b2-V22
    Eupedia.com:

    JK2134 mummy - J1a2a2-Z2329
    J1a2a (Z1828) is defined by the STR values DYS436=11 and DYS388<15. It is the second most common top level subclade after J1-P58. It is particularly frequent around the Taurus and Zagros mountains and all over the Caucasus region, but has also been found at low frequencies in western Turkey, Greece, Ukraine, South Italy, Central Europe, France, and the British Isles. The L1189 subclade seems to be mostly northern European (+ a few samples in Greece and the Arabian peninsula). Under Z1842, the CTS1460 subclade is geographically restricted to the Caucasus, Zagros and Taurus, while ZS3089 is found mainly around Armenia and Azerbaijan.




    jK2911 mummy - ]J2b1



    Jk21888 mummy - E1b1b1a1b2-V22
    E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain.
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    So their autosomal Levantine / Jewish-like result are in line with their haplo also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    Libya was a Greek colony for 800 years and even before the foundation of Tripolis by the Greeks the land is recorded to have had a white European-Levantine population by the Egyptians. For example Septimus Severus was born to an Italian Roman mother and a Punic, ie. Phoenician father in Libya.

    Northern Africa was never black at any time in recorded history. The population was European-Levantine since recorded history began and before recorded history Berber, and the Brebers where of white Arab appearance.

    Yes, I completely agree. However I do think the picture you posted, this person may have more recent SSA admixture and maybe the person that created this: saw Berbers that looked like this: which is similar in appearance to this Syrian: for him to create skin shades of the Asiatic and the Libyan to be both very light in comparison to his own color which was more like this: look here for comparison

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    Assad is lighter than the average Syrian as is the king of Jordan. And many north Africans have nowdays mixed with French colonialists or are descended from the slave european women that ended up in the slave markets there. Tripoli used to be a major slavery hub during the Ottoman era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    Assad is lighter than the average Syrian as is the king of Jordan. And many north Africans have nowdays mixed with French colonialists or are descended from the slave european women that ended up in the slave markets there. Tripoli used to be a major slavery hub during the Ottoman era.
    Yes. Maybe the early dynasty of Egyptians were Blacks since nobody have genetically sequenced their results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin View Post
    Those are greek paintings of greeks/romans ruling Egypt. Look at the paintings art style for goodness sakes. But your wiki link even tells us this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_...eum_18.9.2.jpg

    Eutyches - greek



    The portraits covered the faces of bodies that were mummified for burial. Extant examples indicate that they were mounted into the bands of cloth that were used to wrap the bodies. Almost all have now been detached from the mummies.[2] They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Greco-Roman artistic traditions than Egyptian ones.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fayum-34.jpg







    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinopolis


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim
    " Herodotus mentions the temple dedicated to Perseus and asserts that Chemmis was remarkable for the celebration of games in honor of that hero, after the manner of the Greeks, at which prizes were given; as a matter of fact some representations are known of Nubians and people of Punt (southern coastal Sudan and the Eritrean coast) clambering up poles before the god Min. Min was especially a god of the desert routes on the east of Egypt, and the trading tribes are likely to have gathered to his festivals for business and pleasure at Coptos (which was really near Neapolis) even more than at Akhmim. Herodotus perhaps confused Coptos with Chemmis. Strabo mentions linen-weaving and stone-cutting as ancient industries of Panopolis, and it is not altogether a coincidence that the cemetery of Akhmim is one of the chief sources of the beautiful textiles of Roman and Christian age, that are brought from Egypt.[1]







    http://www.metmuseum.org/press/exhib...om-roman-egypt
    ANCIENT FACES: MUMMY PORTRAITS FROM ROMAN EGYPT
    Spoiler!
    There is truth in this you quote. But we must also acknowledge that during Greco-Roman periods, Greek and Roman practices were accepted and practiced by a wide portion of the entire population, including indigenous populations. Greco-Roman traditions were often held in high regard and were considered desirable by indigenous populations. Shuenemann et al. notes this in the aforementioned study we've discussed here. It's quotes as such:

    "On the one hand, the interpretation of literary and archaeological sources is often complicated by selective representation and preservation and the fact that markers of foreign identity, such as, for example, Greek or Latin names and ethnics, quickly became ‘status symbols’ and were adopted by natives and foreigners alike"

    In the information you quoted above, we can see that Greco-Roman mummy portraits were popular all over Egypt and not just with particular Greco-Romans found in Fayum:

    "Subsequent excavations at sites such as Fag el-Gamus, el-Hibeh, Antinoopolis, Akhmim, and most recently Marina el-Alamein suggest that mummy portraits actually were known throughout much of Egypt, so that the term "Fayum portraits" is no longer valid."

    So although a Greco-Roman portrait could indeed be indicative of a Greco-Roman grave, it's not exclusive to this and could also be indicative of an indigenous Egyptian grave, possibly an upper class person, but probably not pharaonic royals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raine View Post
    Assad is lighter than the average Syrian as is the king of Jordan. And many north Africans have nowdays mixed with French colonialists or are descended from the slave european women that ended up in the slave markets there. Tripoli used to be a major slavery hub during the Ottoman era.
    Be that as it may, we can see that ancient Levantines were less SSA admixed than modern Levantine populations, which could lead to the darker Levantines we see today. Shuenemann et al. notes the addition of SSA in modern Levantine populations:




    As for North Africans, that is true. But we are talking about a time before French or other Europeans appeared in North Africa or any slave markets of the Trans-Saharan slave trade were created. The light coloring of the "Libyan" North African and the "Asiatic" were present in ancient Egyptian times enough to be present on this:


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