Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project

[Agrippa]

The distribution of Northern European vs. North Atlantic in some people makes little sense, even in some from the same population.

I just wonder how the program keeps such obviously very closely related components apart in detail...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ok a chart to go along with it as well then.

One for me too!

[poiuytrewq0987]

The distribution of Northern European vs. North Atlantic in some people makes little sense, even in some from the same population.

I just wonder how the program keeps such obviously very closely related components apart in detail...

Well, it wasn't uncommon for Vikings to take British Isles wives during the Viking Age. So maybe they did take a lot of British wives that replaced a lot of original Norwegians?

[Frederick]

Hm. Hmmm.

Lets not forget the F-Distances between the components.
North-European and North Atlantic are VERY closely "related".

Distance between North-Europe and North Atlantic: 0.015
Thats the smallest distance between any 2 of these components.

The second closest pair is North-Europe and South East Baltic, with a distance of 0.024 to each others.

The next pairing is North Atlantic and South-East baltic with 0.025 distance.



Looking at the British isles alone, its really suggestive of

North Atlantic = Island Celts
North-European = Germanic peoples

But outside of the British Isles this crashes into some strange things:

It makes Germany apear more Celtic than Germanic. This IS imaginable, after all what is now Germany, had only the northern most 1/3 with Germanic tribes and the southern 2/3 Celts. And who knows how much Celts have been Germanized in the Germanic-Celtic wars, 3th-2th century BC.
The southern most third of the country was even not Germanic settled before AD times.

But Norway.... a country, also believed to be Germanic and NEVER, even in parts, to be Celtic, has more North Atlantic than Northern European.

Also looking at France in this run. Much more "Northern European" than "North Atlantic". The run before this run, Ireland centered "North Atlantic" had even be the leading component in France. But from run to run, the algorythm assignes the same alleles to different clusters.

All this makes the above mentioned connection of the components to antique people questionable. It seems, its not that easy.

EDIT:

I also realised that a lot of people have EITHER huge amounts of NOrthern European with almost no North-Atlantic or the other way around.

Thats also the case with the Germans.
There are 13 Germans. 3 of those have "Northern European" at Scandinavian levels (one of those is me). And ALL of them have almost zero North-Atlantic in return.

[Turkophagos]

Southeast Baltic: 0.106729

Northern European: 0.00001

North Atlantic: 0.122683

East and North Eurasian: 0.00001

Sub-Saharan African: 0.00001

Southern European: 0.770548

Western European: 0.00001



No nig, no chink, no cracker, no paella nig. Life is so beautiful!

[poiuytrewq0987]

Southeast Baltic: 0.106729

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tst...-greece_e.html

North Atlantic: 0.122683

http://www.lwcag.org/european-people...of-greece.html

Southern European: 0.770548

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks

[Pallantides]

Well, it wasn't uncommon for Vikings to take British Isles wives during the Viking Age. So maybe they did take a lot of British wives that replaced a lot of original Norwegians?

nah...It wouldn't make any sense in my case, I'm a ür-Scandinavian after all

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...postcount=3997

[Frederick]

The 3 Germans wich have Northern European at Scandinavian (or Dutch) levels and the background I know of them:

Me: (54%)
1 Grandmother born the borderegion Germany/Netherland <----North European from here?
2 Grandparents born in Silesia
1 Grandparent born in East Prussia

German No7: (63%)
2 Grandparents from the German Baltic coast. <----Northern European from here?
1 Grandparent from Baden Würthemberg
1 Grandparent Hessia/Switzerland mix

German No 14: (73%)
Unknown to me

No other surpasses 31%.

[Agrippa]

I also realised that a lot of people have EITHER huge amounts of NOrthern European with almost no North-Atlantic or the other way around.

Thats also the case with the Germans.
There are 13 Germans. 3 of those have "Northern European" at Scandinavian levels (one of those is me). And ALL of them have almost zero North-Atlantic in return.

That's what make me wonder too, it is true for some Germans and Dutch in particular and it makes no sense at all.

There are some which have ZERO of the other component, even though being part of that population and showing no other deviations. Therefore it must be something about the method, rather than real ancestral components alone - after all this method has limited capabilities for detecting real ancestry anyway, even though it is surely useful in this respect as well.

Something similar can be observed in some people with Southern and Western European btw.

North Euro and North Atlantic is also practicaly equidistant to Southern and Western European, unlike the Baltic component.

Again, it is suggestive of Northern Europeans having a huge South Eastern European-West Asian component OF AGE in the genpool, actually the distance of Western European vs. Southern European makes that clear.

But for the distance between Northern European vs. North Atlantic, I'm not sure about how real this is at all, though the main difference I see is that Northern Euro is even closer, even if just somewhat, to both Southern and Western European and Baltic, so closer to those elements which most likely colonised the area from 3 direction, before the regional population was formed.

So if at all, North Atlantic is the even older colonisation event, if one wants to use imagination and overstretch things somewhat. This would coincide with the "more Nordoid Sweden vs. the more old Atlantic Norway" in comparison.

The oldest European components being Western European (~Basque-Sardinian ~ Mediterranean in Dodecad 12) and Baltic (~Eastern European in Dodecad 12). The rest is much more late Mesolithic-Neolithic-Metal Age-recent influenced and closer related to each other, uniting different influences, including those older European ones.

[Frederick]

Therefore it must be something about the method, rather than real ancestral components alone

This method doesnt detect any "real" anchestral components, I am sure.

Its told: look at these people. ASSUME they all made of 7 archetypes. Tell me those archetypes and how much of each, everyone is.

I am absolutely sure, the archetypes it finds, are modern, not ancient and not neolithic.

And those archetypes can be mixed too.

An AMERICAN (US234) reflects the "Northern European Archetype" by 97%
That a problem already. An American is THE "Northern European" Archetype....
REALLY?

From all countries, the Swedes match, by average, that "ideal Northern European" best (51% by average). But the best matching Swede starts at 83% match only.

And besides taking an American as the model for "Northern European", its also MODERN Northern European. Not the Northern European of 2000 years ago.

To do something like this, we would need the aDNA of people who lived back then and make THEM anchors for the clusters.

But even thorugh all the problems... I still trust more into DNA technology than into phenotyping.

Phenotyping bases on maybe 0.1% of the DNA/anchestry of a man. If at all.