R1a-M458-L1029*

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting haplogroup, what is the TMRCA with your nearest match?

His closest match is an Albanian from Gostivar and they share a TMRCA of 1000 years iirc, they both seem to form their own “Albanian” clade within L1029

[Coolguy1]

His closest match is an Albanian from Gostivar and they share a TMRCA of 1000 years iirc, they both seem to form their own “Albanian” clade within L1029

Very interesting that this clade is isolated from the main "Slavic" clades of R1a

[Dibran]

Interesting haplogroup, what is the TMRCA with your nearest match?

My nearest Y37 match was an Albanian at 1000ypb TMRCA. My closest FGC matches were 2 Germans(idk from where) with a TMRCA of 2350ypb. So the Albanian guy is my closest match.

[Peterski]

My closest FGC matches were 2 Germans (idk from where) with a TMRCA of 2350ypb.

They did not pin-point locations of their most distant ancestors? What are their surnames?

BTW, Rethel has an even more basal subclade of M458 than you.

IIRC, he has M458* without anything (!) downstream of M458.

[Peterski]

Rethel has M458* IIRC. So we can say that Rethel is your "proto-daddy".

[Dibran]

They did not pin-point locations of their most distant ancestors? What are their surnames?

BTW, Rethel has an even more basal subclade of M458 than you.

IIRC, he has M458* without anything (!) downstream of M458.

Idk. Unfortunately FGC can't disclose that information(per kit holder maybe). They were able to provide the country of origin but thats all. There was a third match that was closest after that. supposedly a Russian from Ural. TMRCA was 2600ypb. Th

As far as I understand M458* is typically found in central europe with cases in Balkars and Nogais. Perhaps M458* is Sarmatian. With them being absorbed, and later mutations forming as a result of being carried by other groups? I do recall Gimbutas is of the view that M458 is Baltic originally, and was absorbed by Slavs and Germanics.

[Peterski]

R1a-Z280 (especially Z92+ but also other subclades) is actually way more common among modern Balts than M458.

[Dibran]

R1a-Z280 is actually way more common among modern Balts than R1a-M458.

A good part of Belarus Russia and Poland was supposedly part of Proto-Baltic cultural zone. What haplo is common there now is irrelevant. Most of the mainland Balts(west balts) were consumed by Slavs and Germanics. Without sufficient ADNA samples its mostly speculation at this point.

[Peterski]

Most of the mainland Balts(west balts) were consumed by Slavs and Germanics. Without sufficient ADNA samples its mostly speculation at this point.

But I do have Y-DNA from East Prussia (which includes descendants of original West Balts).

I compared Y-DNA frequencies of modern Lithuanians to those in my East Prussian sample:

Lithuanians (n=301) / East Prussians (n=84):

N1c - 40.53% (122) / 22.62% (19)
R1a - 42.19% (127) / 45.23% (38)
I2a - 2.33% (7) / 4.76% (4)
R1b - 4.32% (13) / 15.48% (13)
I1 - 4.65% (14) / 7.14% (6)
E1b - 2.66% (8) / 1.19% (1)
J - 1.33% (4) / 1.19% (1)
G - 1.00% (3) / 1.19% (1)
I2b - 0.33% (1) / 0.00% (0)
other - 0.66% (2) / 1.19% (1)

Total sample - 301 / 84

So, compared to Lithuanians, in East Prussia there was:

- 1.8 times less of N1c
- 2.2 times less of E1b
- 1.1 times less of J

- 3.6 times more of R1b
- 2.0 times more of I2a
- 1.5 times more of I1
- 1.1 times more of R1a

===========================
And when it comes to share of M458 in R1a:

Lithuanians (sample 127):

R1a(xM458) - 100 (= 78.74% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 27 (= 21.26% of R1a)

East Prussia (sample 33 + 5 unknown):

R1a(xM458) - 27 (= 81.82% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 6 (= 18.18% of R1a)

Unknown R1a - 5 (in total 33+5=38)

This map shows only R1a, N1c and I2a samples from East Prussia (list below):



^^^
List of samples from the map, with birthplaces of most distant known ancestors:

Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

Haplogroup R1a:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf)
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk)
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń)
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo)
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo)
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny)
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty)
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg)
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi)
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry)
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo)
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy)
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo)
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo)
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo)
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo)
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany)
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż)
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń)
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki)
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo)
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk)
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg)
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty)
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn)
kit N7393 Reimer born in 1720 in Hoppenau (now part of Elbląg/Elbing)
kit 415060 Skubinna born in 1720 in Loyen (Łoje)
kit E10339 NN, born b4 WW2 somewhere in East Prussia
kit 426239 Kalinowski born in 1878 in Riesenwalde (Stańkowo)

Haplogroup N1c:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman)
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye)
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny) ---> this is actually N1b-L731 (not N1c)
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek)
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko)
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg)
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry)
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit)
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterov)
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis)
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken (now in Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny)
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg)
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein)
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo in East Prussia
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork)
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė)

==================

An attempt to divide East Prussian R1a into typically East Baltic and typically Slavic (based on modern distribution):

Typically East Baltic (modern distribution) and probably East Baltic (12 = 37.5%):

kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520

kits E4688 & N43077 (two samples) - Z92+

kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078

kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258

kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>YP5223
kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619

kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335

Typically (modern distribution) East Slavic subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846

kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

Typically West Slavic and probably West Slavic subclades (6 = 18.8%):

kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359

kit 145992 - M458+
kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+

kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314

Typically West Slavic, and specifically Pomeranian, subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP389>YP4669
kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP269>Y6956>L670
kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243

Other typically Slavic (I guess "Pan-Slavic" ???) subclades (8 = 25%):

kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448
kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515

==================

Other samples of East Prussian R1a (not included due to low-resolution SNP data):

kit E6115 - M512+
kit E10941 - M198+
kit E2656 - M198+
kit N2864 - M417+
kit 145455 - M417+

[Peterski]

I collected those samples from FTDNA Projects of course.

====================================

List of N1 samples (19) included in the map, with FTDNA kit numbers:

kit 142919 (N1c-L1025)
kit N61024 (N1c-L1025)
kit 217892 (N1b-L731) ---> I added it to N1c, later I realized that it is actually N1b.
kit E13080 (N1c-L1025)
kit E9638 (N1c-L1025)
kit 202401 (N1c-L1025)
kit 179556 (N1c-L550)
kit 193848 (N1c-L550)
kit N42695 (N1c-L550)
kit 284236 (N1c-M178)
kit 147092 (N1c-M178)
kit 343953 (N1c-M232)
kit B42972 (N1c-L1025)
kit N58382 (N1c-L1025)
kit 183188 (N1c-L1025)
kit N23762 (N1c-L1025)
kit 173926 (N1c-L1025)
kit E2482 (N1c-L1025)
kit E8045 (N1c-L1025)