Pazyryk Scythian aDNA results (mtDNA)

[ButlerKing]

For the last time, Pazyryk aren't Scythians. They were a far out people who had been culturally Scythicized. The original Scythians are the True Scyths, aka Royal Scyths. Many different groups were recognized as having adopted Scythian culture, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanchlaeni


Scythians were absolutely not Turkic, linguistically, genetically, culturally, racially. None of these things even existed when Scythians first appeared. We also have no idea whether or not this DNA is Mongoloid, just because it is concentrated in Mongoloids today doesn't make it Mongoloid.

SCYTHIAN DNA

" Ancient genome-wide analysis on samples from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva, shows that Iron Age Scythians were a mix of Yamnaya people from the Russian Steppe and East Asian populations, similar to the Han and the Nganasan (Samoyedic people from northern Siberia). The East Asian admixture is pervasive across diverse present-day people from Siberia and Central Asia. "

Han aka Han Chinese
Nganasan a Siberian people


Obviously Mongoloid unless you're telling me the Chinese and Ngannasans don't have Mongoloid DNA.

You even said Central Asians Mongoloid admixture is not not because of the Mongol invasion. You're only partially correct, Central Asians already had Mongoloid during the Scythian times to the Turkic invasion however. Central Asia before Mongol invasion in 13th century were still primary physically Caucasoid and predominately Caucasoid. There were Mongoloid-Europoid people they were a minority until the Mongol-Turkic invasion. Central Asia used to be inhabited by Iranian Caucasoid like Scythians, Sogdians, Pamirs, Bactrians, Andronovo people until the massive genocide and rape of Iranian women by Mongolians army. Now everyone of these groups are extinct except for the Pamiris and Tajik people while the rest of Central Asians can look like straight up East Asian to half Chinese, Japanese, Korean.

Original people of Kazakhstan, Indo-European speaker. These were all racially people of Caucasoid and predominant Caucasoid.



Now Kazakhs today are predominant Mongoloid





Original Kyrgyz from Siberia, union of only Turkic, Uralic, Indo-European.
ancient inhabitants of people from Kyrgyzstan were Caucasoid and half caucasoid




Now Kyrgyz today all predominant Mongoloid





Original Kypchaks were Caucasoid with substantial Mongoloid





However the Kypchaks known as Nogais are mixture of Kypchak and Mongol

They live in Russia North Caucasus and always claim to be descendants of Golden Horde. They are all predominant Mongoloid.





The original people of Northern and Central Afghanistan were like Kushans a Indo-European people.




The Hazara are descendants of Mongol armies and Tajik or Balochi women
They claim to be descendants of Mongol and Genghis Khan although some Hazara prefer to call themsels the original inhabitants known as Kushans






Original people of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan





Many of the Uzbeks and Turkmen retained features of original Central Asians

Uzbeks were effected by both Turkic and Mongol




But Turkmen were already effected by original gokturks who were mixed Mongoloid. DNA does not shows Turkmen they were effected by Mongolians at all but by Siberian DNA. Even Turk have some Siberian DNA today.


[/QUOTE]

[Nanushka]

There is no scientific evidence about Scythians and Sarmatians being IE, all the above posts are personal interpretations of rumours depending on the outworn works of soviet and british from 1940s

So, from the early writers: Anna Comnena says Turks are Scythians in her Alexiad (1148) likewise Michael Attaleiates in The History (1079) clearly express that Schythians are Pechenegs, he was present in Manzikert

Skythians - Pechenegs.jpg

Also, as I have written proeviously, Greek writer Priscus wrote Atilla's Huns spoke scythian and they are from the same origin with Scyhtians (448). I read the book myself

No need to write about the research of the many Turkic academics today like İlhami Durmus, O.Karatay, Laipanov etc:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...cPeoplesEn.htm

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...criptionEn.htm

There are abundance of such findings I can give more if you wish but I cant see any proof on Iranian-theory other than 'mighty' wiki

[Grab the Gauge]

SCYTHIAN DNA

[/QUOTE]

HA HA HAAAAA typical ButlerKing post, lots of pictures of shitty second world reconstructions, no factual data.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Fact: Central Asian males are majority R1 just as they have been since the Bronze Age, no Mongoloid replacement by Turks or Mongols:

Kyrgyz 61% R1a:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia


Scythians R1a:

Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilisation. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[134] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage contrasts markedly with the diversity seen in the mtDNA profiles.

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Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:

Genetic analyses of the mummies showed that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East. The maternal lineages of the Xiaohe people originated from both East Asia and West Eurasia, whereas the paternal lineages all originated from West Eurasia.[11]

Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that maternal lineages carried by the people at Xiaohe included mtDNA haplogroups H, K, U5, U7, U2e, T and R*, which are now most common in West Eurasia. Also found were haplogroups common in modern populations from East Asia: B5, D and G2a. Haplogroups now common in Central Asian or Siberian populations included: C4 and C5. Haplogroups later regarded as typically South Asian includedM5 and M*.[12]

The paternal lines of male remains surveyed nearly all – 11 out of 12, or around 92% – belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup R1a1, which are now most common in West Eurasia; the other belonged to the exceptionally rare paragroup K* (M9).[13]

Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women. By the time of the Mongol invasions of central Asia, most people were already partially Mongoloid. Even Genghis Khan himself was a byproduct of this mixture. He was not fully East Eurasian.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0161622

Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.

[Pahli]

All the returds are spawning again, how delightful

[Proto-Shaman]

SCYTHIAN DNA
Han aka Han Chinese
Nganasan a Siberian people

Obviously Mongoloid

massive genocide and rape

Indo-European speaker.

like Kushans a Indo-European people.[/B]

Even Turk have some Siberian DNA today.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:

Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women.

[ButlerKing]

HA HA HAAAAA typical ButlerKing post, lots of pictures of shitty second world reconstructions, no factual data.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Fact: Central Asian males are majority R1 just as they have been since the Bronze Age, no Mongoloid replacement by Turks or Mongols:

Kyrgyz 61% R1a:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia


Scythians R1a:






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Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:






http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0161622

Don't confuse yourself so badly. You are correct and wrong. Early Mongoloid admixture in Central Asian started out mostly with Mongoloid females and Europoid BUT AFTER THAT it was Mongoloid males and Mongoloid-Europoid males Europoid females. Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women and later Mongol-Turkic men mating with Europoid female. Have you forgotten Central Asians also have 40-90% European mtDNA ??? Kazakhs have 40-50% European women mtDNA with predominately East Asian male ancestry 70-90% (in many studies), Kyrgyz have mostly European Y-DNA 60-70% but how do you explain the fact they have 27-42.6% European women mtDNA ? Where do you find a pure Europoid Kyrgyz ???? THERE IS NONE AND THE ANSWER IS HERE.



Fact no.1
There is more Mongolian Y-DNA than mtDNA in Central Asia but more Siberian mtDNA than Y-DNA. And if you include the R1a Mongoloid males ( who have Europoid paternal ancestry but look as Mongoloid as any Chinese ) than it's actually more higher than we all think.

Fact no.2
R1a is in Central Asia is partially descended from partially/or heck properly even predominately Mongoloid males R1a.

Did you really think that the Mongoloid invaders of Central Asia were only strictly haplogroup C, O, Q, N, D ???? because Genghis Khan invasion of Central Asia included both Mongol and Turkic tribes. And if we are talking Turkic tribes it's likely they were already predominant Mongoloid males with R1a


The proof is right here

Pazyryk culture

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "


Anayino culture

Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.


" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural mixed type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."









Kyrgyz may have 40-70% R1a ( depending on the Kyrgyz tribes, some Kyrgyz actually have very low R1a despite several studies show them with high )

West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end [37] with Haplogroup mtDNA H being the most predominant marker at 21.3% among the Kyrgyz.[37]

Do you understand what this means ?

It means Europoid mated with Mongoloid females and later Mongoloid males and predominant Mongoloid males mated with Europoid females in different periods of time and history.






Here is Kyrgyz west Eurasian mtDNA


Kyrgyz populations have frequencies of West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end.


Do you understand what this means ? It means in 1 in 4 (27%) or almost 1 in 2 ( 42.6% ) of the 5.5 million Kyrgyz population are also descended from Caucasian Europoid females. Or better said roughly a quarter to half of them are descended from Caucasoid females.


Look at these Kyrgyz, not one of them look even the slight Europoid.



The fact that every modern genetic study shows Kyrgyz being super heavily Mongoloid MEANS all ancient Europoid females from Kyrgyzstan also had to mixed with Mongoloid males with C, O, Q, N and Predominately Mongoloid males with R1a



You won't find one single modern Kyrgyz who's a pure Europoid genetically with a pure R1a and Caucasian mtDNA H

Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.

Nice source from Euro-centrist website, only thing Chinese never described these colored hair/eyes Mongols as western barbarian like they did with Uyghurs and Tocharian but instead they compared than them with a Mongoloid Tibetan male who had only one blue eye or with Heterochromia disease.


Here is your blue eye, red hair Odegei Khan looks 100% Mongoloid facially and genetically properly 95% Mongoloid.



Physical appearance of Genghis Khan by his grandson Kublai Khan


" The closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan, which was drawn under the supervision of his grandson Khubilai during the Mongol Yuan dynasty and depicts Genghis Khan with typical Mongol features.[73] "


This is the closest depictions of Genghis Khan, the original was in black and white ink, not the 14th century coloured album




Here is what Genghis Khan would have 100% looked like. Green/blue eye Mongol with hair, although extremely rare it occurs occasionally.






And for your info there are 100% pure East Eurasian with those red hair/blonde hair blue eyes such as the Hmong



Half Asians with blue eyes and red hair



Typical Euro-centrist. Who give a crap if he is not pure East Eurasian when he is still around 98% East Eurasian or 90-95%. Do you see Muhammad Ali giving a crap that he is 1/4 White ? First try to show me a half Black even identify himself as some half white boy before you try that on a figure not even 5-10% white.

[Hadouken]

wir waren skythen und so'n scheiß

[ButlerKing]

Why do people keep thinking Kyrgyz = Europoid males and Mongoloid females. From a genetic point you can only say most of them are Europoid male descendants and Mongoloid female but there is still large number of them descendant from Mongoloid males, Europoid females. We are talking about 27 - 42.6% West Eurasian mtDNA not 1-4% ( And never mind South Asian mtDNA which is 3-9% although most of them properly existed in pre-central Asians and looked a typical ancient Central Asian). Now thanks to anthropology of ancient people we shouldn't think about only haplogroup C, O, Q, N people invaded there was also Mongoloid faces males but with R1a inherited through their Scythian fathers.


Kyrgyz population 5.5 million/or 5,500,000


27% Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 1,485,000 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry

42.6% of Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 2,257,800 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry




Assuming those Caucasoid mtDNA wasn't raped or mated with than where the heck is one genetic data with Kyrgyz showing pure Europoid DNA or where is the crowed picture of them that don't look super Mongoloid ( I'm talking about crowed picture not cherrypicked indidividuals )


It means not just Mongoloid mtDNA got f*cked the same goes for Caucasoid mtDNA historically.







As for Uyghurs

They are descended from Tocharian, now assuming in ancient times half of them were pure Europoid and half were Mongoloid-Europoid (don't know what degree though ) One can assume have the Uyghur invasion of Tarim Basin, that almost all the intermixture were Mongoloid males and Europoid females and Mongoloid-Europoid females with both Caucasian mtDNA and Mongoloid mtDNA because ancient Tocharian were already this admixture but they heavily Europoid unlike today ancient Tocharians properly like ancient Scythians with 80-85% Europoid, 15-20% Mongoloid not like modern Uyghurs ( descendant of Tocharian ) who are 50% Mongoloid and only 50% Europoid.


" A study on mitochondrial DNA (therefore the matrilineal genetic contribution) found the frequency of western Eurasian-specific haplogroup in Uyghurs to be 42.6%, and East Asian haplogroup to be 57.4%[133] A further study shows that the western-Eurasian patrilineal Y-DNA haplogroup in Uyghurs is around 65% to 70%, and east-Asian Y-DNA haplogroup around 30% to 35%.[134] ( from 0% to 30-35% but mtDNA west Eurasian were properly the same )


According to the paper by Li et al.:

... the western East Asians are more closely related to Uyghurs than the eastern East Asians. ... STRUCTURE cannot distinguish recent admixture from a cline of other origin, and these analyses cannot prove admixture in the Uyghurs; however, historical records indicate that the present Uyghurs were formed by admixture between Tocharians from the west and Orkhon Uyghurs (Wugusi-Huihu, according to present Chinese pronunciation) from the east in the 8th century AD. The Uyghur Empire was originally located in Mongolia and conquered the Tocharian tribes in Xinjiang. Tocharians such as Kroran have been shown by archaeological findings to appear phenotypically similar to northern and central Europeans, whereas the Orkhon Uyghur people were clearly Mongolians. The two groups of people subsequently mixed in Xinjiang to become one population, the present Uyghurs. We do not know the genetic constitution of the Tocharians, but if they were similar to western Siberians, such as the Khanty, admixture would already be biased toward similarity with East Asian populations.

[Hadouken]

wir alle sind skythen und so'n scheiß

[Userius]

Tocharians were probably among the more clearly Caucasoid groups. They had DNA more resembling mainland Europeans and spoke a language similar to the Celtic branch. "Scythians" as a whole were not a singular people and as such each had varying degrees of being Caucasoid or Mongoloid. That is the nature of the steppes. Ethnicity was ALWAYS very fluid among the nomadic steppe tribes, and race didn't hold the same meaning.

There also wasn't any grand "Scythian" empire like some people believe, just loose coalitions of tribes that moved in fluid borders with few areas ever having an actual, stable population.