The genetic diversity of Northern Italy

[Adamastor]

I'd attribute this to individual variation, unless we can see a concise cluster formed by people from each part of Friuli, which would clearly reflect different natures of admixture. We still don't have nearly enough samples to do something like that, so we can only guess. In the recent Italian paper, with a lot of samples from all over Northern Italy, Friuli is clearly heading towards Slovenians too. Northern Italy, specially the regions that figure in the Alpine cluster looks like a melting pot of basically everything. I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

It seems there's a variation in two directions: Slovenia and Austrian Tyrol/France/SW Germany. The results from Pordenone I have seen show a heavy tendency towards the main French cluster, like the Trento 'S' sample. They all derive their ancestry from the same city and I'm not sure if this city is inhabited mainly by ethnic minorities or not, someone living in Italy could help us with that.

I guess we will only have a more accurate picture of Northeastern Italy with much more samples. I have seen people from Trento plotting only slightly more northern than lowland Venetians and others who plot almost like Austrian Tyroleans. Individual variation seems to be strong in the region, more than in other parts of Europe I've seen so far.

I'm searching for Swiss Romansch and Ladin results from Trentino, do you have any? I think they can be a 'key' to solve this mystery since they are probably the closest populations to what Alpine populations were before Italics, Germans, Slavs. Maybe some Friulans as well, given the fact Friulan is a Rhaeto-Romance language.

[Vid Flumina]

Yes, I saw some results from Lower Piedmont (Alessandria, Monferrato) and they were going in the direction of Liguria and Emilia. There is a cline everywhere in Italy, even within the same region.

Makes sense. Borbera valley (Alessandria province) sample also looked Bergamo-like if not a little south of it in the Friulian genetic isolates study.
Linguistically this seems to be a transitional area between Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard and Emilian:



We see a similar pattern on the opposite side with Verona/Southern Veneto being sucked into the same cluster.

[Nurzat]

Lol. A big bridge between the Roman empire and Rajasthan (jokin')

why joke? it's true

this is a great video and a great song! lyrics are in Romanian, it says the young girl is eating watermelon on the village street.

common thing to Romanians and Italians: big family gatherings, close family ties, mother-son close relationship

[Joso]

any region has such a "diversity" - on the map you see their average, it doesn't mean all samples plot close to that dot. there's Romanians plotting from Greece to Hungary and from Bosnia to Moldova... and each dot you see on that map is probably based on samples scattered around the same as Italians.




north Italians on your map still look closer to Romanians and other Balkanites than to neighbouring Austrians though

Wild NURZAT appeared!

>FIGHT
PKMN
ITEM
RUN

[Token]

It seems there's a variation in two directions: Slovenia and Austrian Tyrol/France/SW Germany. The results from Pordenone I have seen show a heavy tendency towards the main French cluster, like the Trento 'S' sample. They all derive their ancestry from the same city and I'm not sure if this city is inhabited mainly by ethnic minorities or not, someone living in Italy could help us with that.

I guess we will only have a more accurate picture of Northeastern Italy with much more samples. I have seen people from Trento plotting only slightly more northern than lowland Venetians and others who plot almost like Austrian Tyroleans. Individual variation seems to be strong in the region, more than in other parts of Europe I've seen so far.

I'm searching for Swiss Romansch and Ladin results from Trentino, do you have any? I think they can be a 'key' to solve this mystery since they are probably the closest populations to what Alpine populations were before Italics, Germans, Slavs. Maybe some Friulans as well, given the fact Friulan is a Rhaeto-Romance language.

Not from Trentino, but the Rhaeto-Romance isolates from Friul plot somewhere between Basques and Sardinians. They probably didn't got any Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic admixture. Also, i don't know if you have already read at Anthrogenica but Italic samples will be released soon and they cluster with Basques, and so do Etruscans.

[Adamastor]

Not from Trentino, but the Rhaeto-Romance isolates from Friul plot somewhere between Basques and Sardinians. They probably didn't got any Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic admixture. Also, i don't know if you have already read at Anthrogenica but Italic samples will be released soon and they cluster with Basques, and so do Etruscans.

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.

[Token]

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.

Yep, this is why a refer to Northern Italy as a huge melting pot of basically everything ranging from Greeks to Scandinavians. Celticization, Romanization and the barbarian migrations, and additional Austro-Bavarian admixture in the case of 'Alpine' Italians. All of them seems to have contributed to the formation of modern-day North Italians. Like a pendulum, North Italians probably oscilated from French-like to Central Italian-like over its troubled history.

[Percivalle]

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.

In the leaked PCA, Etruscans show a certain tendency, but were not exactly Basque-like. The Villanovan culture is Etruscan and only Etruscan, you get confused with the previous Bronze age culture, the Proto-Villanovan culture which is not only ancestral to the Etruscans of the Villanovan phase but also to other populations of the Iron Age in Italy (Atestine culture, Latial Culture, Picenes...).

[savvas]

Tuscan samples added (Lucca in Tuscany and Monferrato in Piedmont are in the same position):

[MinervaItalica]

"Italians" people doesn't exist, genetically speaking. They are four group, genetically differents : North Italy, Central, Southern and Sardinian cluster.

Coming from a Canadian sound pretty funny.

Genetics are based on numbers and numbers can be manipulated, especially in forum like these.

Culture is much more significant to define an ethnic group and definitely much more "tangible" than genetics who, frankly, no one care IRL.