White Serb/Sorb gedmatch result!

[Leto]

Bosniakdom is basically meaningless without Islam and Turkish LARPing. The same race, language, many similar cultural features. It's like being a Yazidi without the religion - one simply becomes another Kurd.

[Pribislav]

Not really. It's taken out of context and they have been ruling Serbian lands during certain amount of time, too.

Early Bosnia was created on territory of early Serbian medieval state. Early Bosnia was triangle between Sarajevo, Travnik and Tuzla. Croatia was more western of that area, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age were on Vrbas and Cetina rivers.
Matej Ninoslav lived in 13th century and in his charter to Dubrovčani he call inhabitants of Bosnia Serbs and Dubrovčani Vlachs. In 13th century Bosnia was not much bigger than proto-Bosnia. East Herzegovina and Raška became part of Bosnia in second half of 14th century in the time of Tvrtko's rule.

[Jana]

Then why could they not have reverted to the pre Ottoman understanding of themselves once the occupation was over? Especially in the 20th century. Why keep clinging to Islam as a cultural marker?

Because by adopting Islam they totally abandoned cherishing of medieval Bosnian history. Islam doesn't allow any identification with non Islamic past.
Only Bosnian Croats preserved memory of old Bosnian Kingdom, especially Francisian monks, while muslims and orthodox didn't care about it at all (because their religion didn't allow them to)

Until very recently you could find Bosnian royal names only among Catholics (Croats), while Orthodox (Serbs) prefered names of Serbian medieval Empire and muslims Arabic or Turkish/Persian names.

[Ford]

Then why could they not have reverted to the pre Ottoman understanding of themselves once the occupation was over? Especially in the 20th century. Why keep clinging to Islam as a cultural marker?

How could they revert to an understanding they had no concept of? They were for all intents and purposes no different than Turks. Most noblemen weren't even of Turkish descent, but Slavic. Basically a self-occupation and spiritual assimilation.

[Jana]

Bosniakdom is basically meaningless without Islam and Turkish LARPing. The same race, language, many similar cultural features. It's like being a Yazidi without the religion - one simply becomes another Kurd.

Bosniakdom makes sense only if Catholics and Orthodox will start considering themself Bosniaks.
And it won't happen. It's unsolvable riddle for now.

[Jana]

Early Bosnia was created on territory of early Serbian medieval state. Early Bosnia was triangle between Sarajevo, Travnik and Tuzla. Croatia was more western of that area, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age were on Vrbas and Cetina rivers.
Matej Ninoslav lived in 13th century and in his charter to Dubrovčani he call inhabitants of Bosnia Serbs and Dubrovčani Vlachs. In 13th century Bosnia was not much bigger than proto-Bosnia. East Herzegovina and Raška became part of Bosnia in second half of 14th century in the time of Tvrtko's rule.

Re-posting Mingle post from another thread:

Multiple letters from Ban Kulin clearly reference his subjects as Serbs when distinguishing them from Vlachs. Their language is also referenced to be Serbian by Stefan Kotromanić in another letter.

The Serb vs. Vlach distinction is not originally from Bosnia, but rather from Serbia. The first instance of these names being used is in the document of the Grand Principality of Serbia (known as "Rascia" back then by Westerners) from Stefan to Dubrovnik around he year 1215. So basically the distinction between "Srblin" and "Vlah" came to Bosnia from Serbia under the complicity of the Dubrovnik public office. The document can be recognized to have been written by Paskal. He had written two of Matej Ninoslav's documents in 1240 and 1249. Matej Ninoslav's first document was written before 1235 by notary Desoje. Also, a document sent by Ban Kulin in 1189 (which is older than Ninoslav's document) doesn't recognize the name "Srblin" or even "Vlah". The reason for why the Dubrovnik notaries identified Bosnia with Serbs may have been Serbia's leading position in the Slavic continental hinterland. This was around the time that Serbia had conquered Hum, Travunja, and Duklja while Bosnia was a small state.

According to M. Kuljbakin, "the ortography of Miroslav's Gospel differs significantly from Serbian Church monuments, such as Vukan's Gospel (Vukanovo evandelje), and approaches those old Croatian Cyrillic charters of Ban Kulin, Matej Ninoslav, and others.

The Pope sent a letter in 1188 to the bishop of Dubrovnik where he acknowledges all old rights of the Dubrovnik church. In the letter, he mentions Serbian Bosnia: "regnum Servilie, quod est Bosna" (Serbian kingdom of Bosnia). That was in the time of Ban Kulin.

During the time that the papal decrees were written where Bosnia was referenced as part of Serbia, Bosnia was in fact an independent entity and not part of Serbia. These were written during the reigns of Ban Kulin and Ban Matej Ninoslav. The reason for this confusion is likely because of not only the Dubrovnik public office using the "Srbin" and "Vlah" distinction, but also because of Bosnia's previous position where it was adjacent to Serbia and influenced by Serbia before it eventually started its own kingdom. Since Serbia was a powerful state in that area and Bosnia was still developing as one, Bosnia being mentioned as a Serbian state is indicative of Serbia's influence in that region. It should be noted once again that besides these three documents made in Dubrovnik, the inhabitants of Bosnia are never implied to be Serbs.

Tvrtko sees himself as a Serb when he says "by the Grace of God King of the Serbs, Bosnia, Pomorje and the Western Areas"

He only did that so he could claim continuity with the Nemanjić Dynasty. Even though he actually did have partial Serb ancestry (through his Serbian grandmother Jelisaveta), he only emphasized on it so he could claim heir to the throne, not because he saw himself as a Serb.

[Leto]

Wow, Mingle seems like a great Pakistani expert in the Balkans

[Jana]

Wow, Mingle seems like a great Pakistani expert in the Balkans

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

[Leto]

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the rest because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, after all they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

Spoiler!

For lolz :
Mingle can become an honorary Slav, even an honorary Belarusian if he fully embraces the specific quarter of his ancestry and confidently denounces one nasty ideology that is written with a capital I. Of course accepting Christ would be ideal but that can't be done by force.

[Dick]

Stefan Dushan’s code.
http://serbiasos.blogspot.com/2012/0...ushan.html?m=1

75. For Fighting
A fight between villages, 50 perpers, between Vlachs and Albanians, 100 perpers. And of this fine one half to the Tsar, and one half to the lord owning the village.

80. On the Vlachs and Albanians
In a village where a Vlach or an Albanian stay, another following him shall not stay in that village. If that one stay by force, let him pay a fine and for the grass he has grazed.