My paleo-Balkan ancestors were Thracians

[vbnetkhio]

I don't think it has Slavic influence. Its probably just a northern shift that existed from ancient times.

g25 is better than that. if it was that ancient northern shift he would get Yamnaya or Corded ware, not Bulgarian and Romanian

[ixulescu]

It's a historical map

It should depict that period, but it does a bad job. There are plenty of nomadic tribes listed north of Danube, but the main, sedentary, population is not mentioned. That's pretty bad.

Also the main change of borders in that area during the marked period is not represented on the map. It's good for the trash heap, like most "historical" maps.

[Mingle]

g25 is better than that. if it was that ancient northern shift he would get Yamnaya or Corded ware, not Bulgarian and Romanian

Yamnaya and Corded Ware are more ancient. Roopkund B doesn't get them cause of genetic drift. Most northeastern DNA among Bulgarians and Romanians probably comes from Slavs, but some of it comes from IA populations as well. Iron Age Thracians and Paeonians wouldn't have plotted like Cretans and Sicilians but north of them. Same applies to Iron Age Mainland Greeks. Besides the fact that IA Mainland Greeks likely were northern shifted compared to Sicilians/Cretans, Greeks (especially mainland ones) would have also shared some non-northern DNA with modern Bulgarians and Romanians that would make them select those populations in mixed mode modeling instead of Yamnaya/CW (in addition to genetic drift).

Roopkund B is a sample of a Greek descendant in India. The Greeks in South/Central Asia were descended from the soldiers of the Macedonian Empire. The Greeks would have thus arrived in S/C Asia before Slavs arrived to the Balkans. So the Greek sample couldn't have had Slavic influence based on the history of the region.

[vbnetkhio]

list without IND_Roopkund_B

Bosnians
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0101"
"63.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 36.6 % ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o" "0.0106"

Bulgarians
"44.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 55.8 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0086"
"37.3 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 62.7 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0091"

Macedonians
"49.5 % BGR_IA + 50.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2"
"48 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 52 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0118"

Romanians
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"
"40.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 59.2 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.01"

[vbnetkhio]

Yamnaya and Corded Ware are more ancient. Roopkund B doesn't get them cause of genetic drift. Most northeastern DNA among Bulgarians and Romanians probably comes from Slavs, but some of it comes from IA populations as well.

i think only Balto-Slavs in g25 have a post bronze age drift in g25. Mycenaeans and HRV_IA can still be modelled well with Yamnaya and Corded ware and neolithic samples

Roopkund B is a sample of a Greek descendant in India.

is this confirmed? these samples, there's more of them, seem to be from different groups of modern Greeks, or maybe medievals who were already like modern ones

[Mingle]

i think only Balto-Slavs in g25 have a post bronze age drift in g25. Mycenaeans and HRV_IA can still be modelled well with Yamnaya and Corded ware and neolithic samples

Myceneans and HRV IA would be a bit more distant to Romanians and Bulgarians than Medieval Greeks were, both in time period and geography (and thus would've had less similar ancestral components as well).

Also, as I mentioned, there's a lot of shared non-Slavic ancestry between Greeks, Romanians, and Bulgarians. In fact, the majority of their shared ancestry is non-Slavic.

is this confirmed? these samples, there's more of them, seem to be from different groups of modern Greeks, or maybe medievals who were already like modern ones

Roopkund is an archaeological site in India. Not all the Roopkund samples are Greeks. However, its logical to assume that they were Greek descendants of the Macedonian Empire Greeks since they cluster with Greeks. Those that cluster with Indians (Roopkund A) can be assumed to have been native Indians.

[Dick]

Čestitam Dule.

[Kaspias]

IND_roopkund_B it’s a medieval greek?

i wasn't sure, but it seems it is. it has Slavic influence so it's not good for making these models. i'll do a list without it

[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Greek_Crete" "0.0079"
[2,] "Greek_Ionia" "0.0084"
[3,] "Italian_Basilicata" "0.0088"
[4,] "Greek_Kos" "0.0088"
[5,] "Italian_Apulia" "0.0097"
[6,] "Italian_Calabria" "0.0101"
[7,] "Italian_Campania" "0.0104"
[8,] "Greek" "0.0113"
[9,] "Italian_Molise" "0.0115"
[10,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "0.0116"
[11,] "Sicilian_East" "0.0147"
[12,] "Albanian" "0.0148"
[13,] "Italian_Lazio" "0.0155"
[14,] "Italian_Marche" "0.0155"
[15,] "Maltese" "0.0157"
[16,] "Italian_Umbria" "0.0159"
[17,] "Romaniote_Jew" "0.0162"
[18,] "Ashkenazi_Jew" "0.0162"
[19,] "Sicilian_West" "0.0164"
[20,] "Italian_Jew" "0.0165"
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "27.2 % Bulgarian + 72.8 % Greek_Kos" "0.0048"
[2,] "75.8 % Greek_Kos + 24.2 % Romanian" "0.005"
[3,] "78.4 % Greek_Kos + 21.6 % Serbian" "0.0051"
[4,] "34.1 % Albanian + 65.9 % Greek_Kos" "0.0051"
[5,] "72.9 % Greek_Kos + 27.1 % Moldavian" "0.0053"
[6,] "41.3 % Greek + 58.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0053"
[7,] "77 % Greek_Kos + 23 % Macedonian" "0.0055"
[8,] "26.4 % Gagauz + 73.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0055"
[9,] "36.7 % Greek + 63.3 % Greek_Crete" "0.0055"
[10,] "84.1 % Greek_Kos + 15.9 % Slovenian" "0.0056"
[11,] "16.4 % Croatian + 83.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[12,] "51.9 % Greek_Ionia + 48.1 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[13,] "37.8 % Cypriot + 62.2 % Greek" "0.0057"
[14,] "89.3 % Greek_Kos + 10.7 % Russian_Smolensk" "0.0057"
[15,] "79.8 % Greek_Kos + 20.2 % Montenegrin" "0.0058"
[16,] "84.5 % Greek_Kos + 15.5 % Hungarian" "0.0058"
[17,] "88.8 % Greek_Kos + 11.2 % Russian_Voronez" "0.0058"
[18,] "87.3 % Greek_Kos + 12.7 % Tatar_Mishar" "0.0058"
[19,] "90.2 % Greek_Kos + 9.8 % Russian_Pinega" "0.0059"
[20,] "10.3 % Belarusian + 89.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0059"

y-DNA of Roopkund_B samples:

1. J1a3a
2. R1a1a1b1a2b
3. G2a2b2a1a1c1a2
4. R1b1ab
5. T1a2
6. E1b1b1b2




SNP calls: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1185572501

I6936 and I3404 appear to be Mainland Greeks.
I6397 may be a South Italian.
I3405, I6939, and I3403 seem to be Cretans, but possibly also South Italians.
I6935 is a Cappadocian Greek (from Central Anatolia).

However, I3350 appears to be Italian.

The study says the Roopkund_B individuals were born in the eastern Mediterranean during the period of Ottoman political control. Greece is the best fit in this scenario and at least few samples appear to be from mainland Greece (Fig. 2b.) Eurogenes confirmed one sample is an Anatolian Greek. Cretans can be ruled out because the Roopkund_B individuals subsisted on a predominantly terrestrial diet and they may have lived in an inland location. The Greeks were the maritime carriers of the Ottoman Empire and they were as dominant as Italians in the fields of commerce and business.

The Roopkund_B cluster is more puzzling. It is tempting to hypothesize that the Roopkund_B individuals descend from Indo-Greek populations established after the time of Alexander the Great, who may have contributed ancestry to some present-day groups like the Kalash21. However, this is unlikely, as such a group would be expected to have admixture with groups with more typical South Asian ancestry (as the Kalash do), or would be expected to be inbred and to have relatively low genetic diversity. However, the Roopkund_B individuals have evidence for neither pattern (Supplementary Note 9). Combining different lines of evidence, the data suggest instead that what we have sampled is a group of unrelated men and women who were born in the eastern Mediterranean during the period of Ottoman political control. As suggested by their consumption of a predominantly terrestrial, rather than marine-based diet, they may have lived in an inland location, eventually traveling to and dying in the Himalayas. Whether they were participating in a pilgrimage, or were drawn to Roopkund Lake for other reasons, is a mystery.

[Dušan]

Čestitam Dule

I just want to find out why I don't get any North Italian - if it is supposed to be closest to Illyrians, in all these calculators.
What is your usual non-Slavic part in nmonte and mixed oracle?

[Jana]

You may be bit more Slavic than me (I am in 55-65% range) you may be around 70% in fact, right? You are very Slavic Dušan.
But I plot more northern than you do because my pre-Slavic part was considerably more NW shifted than yours.