Samnium's Eurogenes results (FAKE)

[Samnium]

This sample is roughly like Provence, more or less equidistant from Iberians and West Germans. This Provence sample is even more northern than Savoyards. Haute-Savoie is in southeastern France, i don't know why you expect it to be genetically Northern French.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.51
2 West_Med 22.08
3 Baltic 20.48
4 West_Asian 7.01
5 East_Med 5.86
6 Siberian 1.06


1 French 6.3
2 South_Dutch 6.43
3 West_German 7.42
4 Southeast_English 10.24
5 Southwest_English 10.46
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.14
7 Southwest_French 11.42
8 Orcadian 11.99
9 Spanish_Cantabria 12.25
10 Austrian 12.35
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.53
12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
13 Irish 12.75
14 North_German 12.88
15 Portuguese 13.08
16 West_Scottish 13.1
17 North_Dutch 13.11
18 Danish 13.46
19 East_German 13.65
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81

Because of samples that I had seen from that area + recent study from Giemza + historical factors

Also Haute-Savoie is central France geographically, on line with Auvergne :

[Samnium]

The sample that you sent has ancestry also from Savoie :

"The example I posted above has ancestry from both Haute Savoie and the lower Savoie deparments."

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....nt-ones/page31

Not a good example I would say. I'm trying to find the Haute-Savoie results that I had seen but it's pretty difficult

[Samnium]

I've found again these results quite interesting:

https://www.geneanet.org/forum/viewt...52616&start=15

Spoiler!

Pour ma mère (75% Champagne-Lorraine, 25% Haute-Savoie) ça donne :
Distance to: B
4.45341442 Swiss_German
5.56779130 South_Dutch
5.67177221 French
6.12599380 West_German
6.60540688 Swiss_French

Distance: 1.7809% / 1.78089489 | ADC: 0.25x
48.0 Swiss_German
22.0 Southwest_French
10.2 Swedish
7.8 German_east
7.0 French
5.0 South_Dutch

Pour ma tante (sa belle-sœur), 100% champenoise :
5.38108725 French
5.87361899 Swiss_German
6.15633820 Swiss_French
6.99535560 South_Dutch
7.62200105 West_German
7.84549552 AostaValley

53.6 Swiss_French
27.8 Welsh
10.8 Southwest_French
6.6 Spanish_Galicia
1.2 Serb_North-Macedonia

Both have North-Eastern French ancestry, but one is 25% Haute-Savoie. She's not shifted at all toward Northern Italy not even slightly (Swiss_German and South_Dutch appears in first place), Aosta isn't even present in the list and it doesn't appear in the model.

[Samnium]

Swiss French (Canton de Vaud)/Swiss German (Fribourg)/Haute-Savoie (vallée de l'Arve) mix, she's very close to the West German average

Spoiler!

K13 :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.31
2 Baltic 22.09
3 West_Med 15.11
4 East_Med 12.15
5 West_Asian 6.86
6 Northeast_African 1.28
7 South_Asian 0.86
8 Siberian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.86
2 South_Dutch 5.44
3 French 6.91
4 Austrian 8.69
5 Southeast_English 10.45
6 North_German 10.7
7 East_German 10.91
8 Hungarian 11.97
9 Danish 12.14
10 North_Dutch 12.39
11 Southwest_English 12.5
12 Orcadian 12.59
13 Irish 13.65
14 Spanish_Cataluna 13.66
15 Serbian 13.96
16 West_Scottish 14.05
17 Portuguese 14.49
18 Norwegian 14.56
19 Swedish 14.88
20 Spanish_Galicia 14.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% West_German + 8.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.32
2 92.5% West_German + 7.5% Italian_Jewish @ 2.42
3 70.3% Southeast_English + 29.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.44
4 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.48
5 94.5% West_German + 5.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.49
6 89.2% West_German + 10.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.52
7 93.4% West_German + 6.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.53
8 93.5% West_German + 6.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.55
9 91.3% West_German + 8.7% East_Sicilian @ 2.56
10 94% West_German + 6% Cyprian @ 2.56
11 90.5% West_German + 9.5% West_Sicilian @ 2.56
12 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.57
13 91.9% West_German + 8.1% South_Italian @ 2.57
14 94.8% West_German + 5.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.58
15 64.2% Danish + 35.8% Tuscan @ 2.58
16 91.2% West_German + 8.8% Central_Greek @ 2.59
17 94.7% West_German + 5.3% Samaritan @ 2.6
18 69.7% Danish + 30.3% West_Sicilian @ 2.6
19 90.2% West_German + 9.8% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.63
20 88.3% West_German + 11.7% Tuscan @ 2.63

K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 29.52
2 North_Sea 23.88
3 Baltic 11.18
4 West_Med 11.07
5 East_Med 9.52
6 Eastern_Euro 8.67
7 West_Asian 4.88
8 Northeast_African 1.13
9 South_Asian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Dutch 7.3
2 French 7.99
3 Austrian 10.16
4 Spanish_Cataluna 10.74
5 North_German 11.25
6 West_German 11.3
7 East_German 11.69
8 Southwest_English 11.86
9 Southeast_English 11.95
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.97
11 Portuguese 12.62
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.69
13 Spanish_Galicia 12.93
14 Serbian 13.18
15 Spanish_Extremadura 13.3
16 Spanish_Valencia 13.41
17 Irish 13.45
18 Danish 13.65
19 Hungarian 13.85
20 Southwest_French 14.08

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.3% North_German + 41.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.48
2 55.1% North_German + 44.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.51
3 58.1% North_German + 41.9% North_Italian @ 4.93
4 53.6% North_German + 46.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 5
5 64.3% Irish + 35.7% Greek @ 5.02
6 67.5% Southeast_English + 32.5% Greek @ 5.05
7 57.3% North_German + 42.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.24
8 63% West_Scottish + 37% Greek @ 5.26
9 82.4% South_Dutch + 17.6% West_Sicilian @ 5.26
10 81.7% South_Dutch + 18.3% Greek @ 5.31
11 51.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 48.5% North_German @ 5.31
12 71.4% South_Dutch + 28.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 5.41
13 51.9% Austrian + 48.1% Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.41
14 65.7% Irish + 34.3% West_Sicilian @ 5.41
15 58.7% Spanish_Valencia + 41.3% North_Swedish @ 5.42
16 74.5% South_Dutch + 25.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.49
17 53% Danish + 47% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.49
18 58.6% Spanish_Valencia + 41.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.49
19 65.1% North_German + 34.9% Tuscan @ 5.51
20 70.6% North_German + 29.4% West_Sicilian @ 5.51

[SharpFork]

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

What is Farmer and Yamnaya exactly? Also why you use that Iranian sample and not others as well? Also given you use Mar_EN why not have Natufian there as well? You have no way of representing Natufian-like dna.

Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:

More European how exactly?

[SharpFork]

No it's not what I'm saying, I'm only saying that's not logical the region where I would "plot" given the half southern Italian results that I've seen on gedmatch (and knowing their exact ancestry papertrail), that's all.

It's simply incoherent.

And by the way I don't know if you have noticed, but it's not 50/50 for ancestry composition, not on G25 neither other calculator. So even your calculations are only one value that doesn't mean that much. That's why I made multiple models.

Again explain why G25 is worse than gedmatch?

What's the point ? You haven't seen the models that I made ?

None of them come as Emilian/Tuscan/Ligurian, and I even choose a very southern modelization like half S-Italian half Central Greek.

I did, but my point is that G25 is better. We don't have to try and interpret what fake components are.

You don't understand that you can have more Near Eastern admixture but also more Northern components (exactly like Galicians have more North-African but more North European admixture and they still plot well within the Iberian cluster), overall you will not plot more "southern". The Venetian sample has similar Northern/Southern ratio than the model that you made.

I know that, after all the results show that, a Piedmontese with more Steppe and more Near Eastern and less ENF, or a Ligurian with a more Steppe+WHG and less Near Eastern, but they are still closer to those 2 than to other populations in Norhtern Italy.

You're just saying that Eurogenes K13 calculator is completely inaccurate and that if you plot/you are close with Venetians in reality you plot with Emilians because you have more "Near Eastern DNA".

At this point just use fst distance man, it's a direct way to actually look at the issue, instead of fiddling with abstract componenets.

I think you haven't understood what I said, again. I'm talking about Eurogenes K13 modelizations.

Then why are you so stubborn and try to counter the G25 results I have? I made it pretty clear I was talking about G25, if you don't understand English It's not on me.

And yes there are genetical differences between Alpine Italians and Italians that live in plain areas. Damn you clearly haven’t any clue about Southern Italian genetics.

Not according to G25, all samples in Northern italy outside Liguria and Piedmont(and we have no Emilian) are similar to one another. With no clear plain vs mountain bias, so your point is completely irrelevant.

[Samnium]

Again explain why G25 is worse than gedmatch?

I've never said that, you didn't understood what I said. I only said that your modelization doesn't match with mine (that I made by making averages between differents components and a sample) because your modelization end up in "Ligurian-like" while mine (using K13), no.

I did, but my point is that G25 is better. We don't have to try and interpret what fake components are.

Eurogenes K13 implemented on G25 is just fine, you can see directly and more clearly the genetical distances than with the "standard" mode. Also it's much more easier to see Northern/Southern ratios with this calculator.

You have access to much more modern populations also, you don't find two averages for Tuscany in the standard "drive" of G25 modern populations.

[/QUOTE]I know that, after all the results show that, a Piedmontese with more Steppe and more Near Eastern and less ENF, or a Ligurian with a more Steppe+WHG and less Near Eastern, but they are still closer to those 2 than to other populations in Norhtern Italy.[/QUOTE]

But other populations that you've mentionned have more ENF, so the "southern shift" is equal and overall they will plot at the same place and be close genetically. Atleast on 2D PCA.

At this point just use fst distance man, it's a direct way to actually look at the issue, instead of fiddling with abstract componenets.

It's not possible to make averages of selected samples on G25, you can only do it on the K13/K15 G25 "calculator".

Then why are you so stubborn and try to counter the G25 results I have? I made it pretty clear I was talking about G25, if you don't understand English It's not on me.

I'm only saying that it doesn't make sense with my simulations.

Not according to G25, all samples in Northern italy outside Liguria and Piedmont(and we have no Emilian) are similar to one another.

I'm saying that there are strong variations between different areas in Northern Italy, there is a mainstream "padanian" cluster, and then populations/people that cluster more northern and other more southern. Alpine Italians cluster northern and some of them are very atypical.