So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Token]

We talked about these samples last week and he said "they're probably Late Neolithic or Bronze Age". So he has changed his mind about it?:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//biosample/SAMN14206622

Attributes
isolate	MX188
age	not collected
biomaterial provider	Christian Maise/Regine Fellmann, Archaeological Service of the Canton of Aargau
sex	male
tissue	Pars Petrosa

I don't believe in XenophobicPrussian's "Celts were Baque-like" bullshit, but I agree that this would be super weird if they were so northern.

It would make far more sense if they were Bronze Age, so he probably got some additional information. No one would guess these samples as Iron Age.

[J. Ketch]

[Peterski]

these samples were 'ripped off' (they were published actually) from an upcoming study on Swiss genetics

There is also one sample there that apparently has R1a-M458 and looks South Slavic autosomally. MX265.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages?

=====

Distance to: MX265_scaled
0.03969155 Serbian
0.03976922 Croatian
0.04022650 Slovenian
0.04250646 Bosnian
0.04304069 Austrian
0.04336393 Hungarian
0.04476266 Montenegrin
0.04493139 Romanian
0.04566084 French_Alsace
0.04699986 Swiss_German
0.04763326 Italian_Northeast
0.04810671 Macedonian
0.04859118 French_Nord
0.04911344 German_East
0.05070030 French_Auvergne
0.05089369 Bulgarian
(...)

[Token]

There is also one sample there that apparently has R1a-M458 and looks South Slavic autosomally. MX265.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages?

Apparently he was from La Tène. He got a lot of Baltic admixture.

[Peterski]

Apparently he was from La Tené. He got a lot of Baltic admixture.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages, it just looks too similar to modern South Slavs IMO. And it has R1a-M458 associated with Slavs.

Anyway, all these samples are apparently from Siebke 2019:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.2791

"Abstract

Nowadays, the discovery and excavation of an almost intact Late Neolithic dolmen is rare, as those monuments were often visible in the landscape and have been investigated or destroyed in earlier times; therefore, information about the buried individuals has often been lost. The excavation of the dolmen, a stone grave chamber, from Oberbipp, Switzerland, in 2012 provided a unique opportunity to study human skeletal remains from a Late Neolithic collective burial (3350–2650 BCE). Over 2,000 fragmented and commingled skeletal elements were recovered and form the basis of this morphological study. Established morphological methods were employed to evaluate the minimum number of individuals, age at death, sex, stature, and the presence of pathological alterations and trauma. Sex was determined additionally by aDNA analysis. Elements of the entire human skeleton were recovered indicating a primary burial site. At least 42 individuals (femora) from all age classes (57%:43% adults to subadults) were buried in the dolmen. Based on aDNA analysis (n = 23, partes petrosae) slightly more males than females (44%:35% males to females, 22% indeterminate) were recovered. Stature was estimated from complete femora (n = 3) indicating an average body height between 154–157 cm. Pathological alterations and trauma could be observed on several bones, however, without indications for major interpersonal violence. The caries intensity of Swiss samples seems to be higher compared with other Neolithic European sites. A possible separation of burial areas for males and females based on the recovery of skeletal elements within the dolmen along with aDNA results is postulated. In addition, this article contributes to a better understanding of Late Neolithic populations in Central Europe."

[Token]

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages, it just looks too similar to modern South Slavs IMO. And it has R1a-M458 associated with Slavs.

Anyway, all these MX... samples are from Siebke 2019:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.2791

"Abstract

Nowadays, the discovery and excavation of an almost intact Late Neolithic dolmen is rare, as those monuments were often visible in the landscape and have been investigated or destroyed in earlier times; therefore, information about the buried individuals has often been lost. The excavation of the dolmen, a stone grave chamber, from Oberbipp, Switzerland, in 2012 provided a unique opportunity to study human skeletal remains from a Late Neolithic collective burial (3350–2650 BCE). Over 2,000 fragmented and commingled skeletal elements were recovered and form the basis of this morphological study. Established morphological methods were employed to evaluate the minimum number of individuals, age at death, sex, stature, and the presence of pathological alterations and trauma. Sex was determined additionally by aDNA analysis. Elements of the entire human skeleton were recovered indicating a primary burial site. At least 42 individuals (femora) from all age classes (57%:43% adults to subadults) were buried in the dolmen. Based on aDNA analysis (n = 23, partes petrosae) slightly more males than females (44%:35% males to females, 22% indeterminate) were recovered. Stature was estimated from complete femora (n = 3) indicating an average body height between 154–157 cm. Pathological alterations and trauma could be observed on several bones, however, without indications for major interpersonal violence. The caries intensity of Swiss samples seems to be higher compared with other Neolithic European sites. A possible separation of burial areas for males and females based on the recovery of skeletal elements within the dolmen along with aDNA results is postulated. In addition, this article contributes to a better understanding of Late Neolithic populations in Central Europe."

Not very similar, because the distance is around 4%, and he is suspiciously closest to certain Bavarian Beakers in terms of ancient samples which makes me suspect he could be a local.

[Peterski]

Not very similar

Because if he was Slavic then probably from some extinct tribe like the Carantanians or like these guys:

https://www.jassa.org/?p=2103

I said "too similar" not "very similar".

and he is suspiciously closest to certain Bavarian Beakers in terms of ancient samples which makes me suspect he could be a local.

Yeah these Bavarian Beakers are weirdly eastern-shifted. Maybe they are wrongly dated Medieval samples?

=====

^^^
"Early Czech Slav" samples were also wrongly dated to the Bell Beaker Period at first... Such mistakes happen:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/...m-bohemia.html

"Two early Slavs from Bohemia

Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong."

[Token]

Yeah these Bavarian Beakers are weirdly eastern-shifted. Maybe they are wrongly dated Medieval samples?

Now you've gone full paranoic.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Very interesting. Like you said, good chance of them being misdated(has happened a few times already)and they're simply Beakers or Urnfield(these samples are pretty much identical to Halberstadt_LBA in north-central Germany) but that's pretty rad if they aren't.

If they're dated correctly I still can't just ignore the Bavaria samples though, at most it means proto-Celts/Urnfield were northern European, the Celts kept a caste-esque system for a long time and the area was still diverse.

All 4 samples had the same Y-DNA according to Davidski, this was the only map I was able to find of their I2 clade:



Can't wait to try a few models on modern central Euros with these new samples, wonder how they prefer them over Germanic.

[Peterski]

Now you've gone full paranoic.

Nope, just based on the RISE568 / RISE569 mistake, I assume a similar mistake is possible with some other samples too.

RISE568 and RISE569 were assumed to be Bell Beakers at first in 2015, and in 2017 they were dated to the Middle Ages.

(these samples are pretty much identical to Halberstadt_LBA in north-central Germany)

Yes they are, but maybe Halberstadt_LBA were also Proto-Celtic people or something similar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberstadt (Saxony-Anhalt)