So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[SharpFork]

They are closest to Scandinavians. Very strange to say the least.

Yes very strange, what the heck happened for Central Europeans to be this southern? It seems like Europeans magically pulled themselves towards one another since the middle ages, with Southern Europeans having more Steppe and Northern less.

[J. Ketch]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA

[Token]

Yes they are, but maybe Halberstadt_LBA were also Proto-Celtic people or something similar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberstadt (Saxony-Anhalt)

I'd say they were archaic Celts. There were Celts actively influencing Germanic culture and language in North Germany at the time.

[SharpFork]

Ask your Polish friend, i'm curious too because i still doubt these samples are Celts.

Even if they are Germanic or from Northern Germany they are still more northern than anyone could imagine, I don't believe anyone has so much Steppe in peninsular Europe since the start of the Iron Age.

[Token]

...

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.

[SharpFork]

It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.

[Peterski]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA

Interesting they no longer look Scandinavian if you use ancient samples. All the closest ancient matches are from Non-Germanic areas.

=====

Didn't someone claim before that "Scythian_MDA_o" were ethnic Bastarnians ???

[SharpFork]

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.

Why? Didn't you theorize that Celts were more southern?

[Token]

It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.

I believe the Empuries 'Gaul' (as some hypothesized) would fit this framework very well.

[Token]

Why? Didn't you theorize that Celts were more southern?

Initially, but after the Empuries outlier i changed my mind.