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Thread: So Celts were North Europeans after all?

  1. #61
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    As far as i know Hallstatt is already considered an (early) Iron age culture. I'm not sure why you guys are assuming the sample is from 100 BC, that would be roughly the end of the Iron Age. Is there anything that i'm not aware of?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    Distance to: MX195_scaled
    0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
    0.02693785 CZE_EBA
    0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
    0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
    0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
    0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
    0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
    0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03129264 NLD_BA
    0.03160033 IRL_BA
    0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
    0.03238384 England_LBA
    0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
    0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
    0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
    0.03431673 England_MBA
    0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
    0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
    0.03596234 SWE_LN
    0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
    0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
    0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

    Distance to: MX192_scaled
    0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.02969530 CZE_EBA
    0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
    0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
    0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
    0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
    0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
    0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    0.03343274 IRL_BA
    0.03400888 England_MBA
    0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
    0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
    0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
    0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
    0.03605340 England_LBA
    0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
    0.03649556 NLD_BA
    0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
    0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
    0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
    0.03792013 SWE_LN
    0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
    0.03849249 England_IA

    Distance to: MX190_scaled
    0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
    0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
    0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
    0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
    0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
    0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
    0.03406376 England_MBA
    0.03408697 CZE_EBA
    0.03411035 NLD_BA
    0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
    0.03560488 IRL_BA
    0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
    0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
    0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
    0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
    0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
    0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
    0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
    0.03887208 England_IA
    0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
    0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

    Distance to: MX188_scaled
    0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
    0.03006849 CZE_EBA
    0.03074691 IRL_BA
    0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
    0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
    0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
    0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
    0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
    0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
    0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    0.03446410 England_MBA
    0.03459889 DNK_LN
    0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
    0.03476871 NLD_BA
    0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
    0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
    0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
    0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
    0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
    0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
    0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
    0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
    0.03758439 England_IA
    If these are really Iron Age Celts, why are England IA and Scotland LBA further away from them than Scotland EBA/MBA/BB and England EBA/MBA/BB?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.
    I'm not sure what this in reference to? Thanks for posting these interesting samples though.
    The Irish Brigade's battle cry at Fontenoy, "Cuimhnigí ar Luimneach agus ar feall na Sasanaigh," translates to "Remember Limerick and the treachery of the English." After seeing the devastation caused by the Irish Brigade, the Duke of Cumberland reportedly remarked, "God curse the laws that made those men our enemies".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    As far as i know Hallstatt is already considered an (early) Iron age culture. I'm not sure why you guys are assuming the sample is from 100 BC, that would be roughly the end of the Iron Age. Is there anything that i'm not aware of?
    You mentioned La Tene(450-50 BCE) and Petersky mentioned 100 BCE, not sure where the precise dating comes from, tbh we should wait for the details before speculating as we can build 100 theories all as possible as any other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpFork View Post
    You mentioned La Tene(450-50 BCE) and Petersky mentioned 100 BCE, not sure where the precise dating comes from, tbh we should wait for the details before speculating as we can build 100 theories all as possible as any other.
    I only know they are from the Iron Age, maybe calling it La Tène was too precocious.

  6. #66
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    Looking at unscaled but unscaled does give some strange results.

    Distance to: MX195
    0.02578284 Norwegian
    0.02606281 Grace_unscaled
    0.02711835 Swedish
    0.02778015 Welsh
    0.02787837 Afrikaner
    0.02807151 German
    0.02813349 Dutch
    0.02849624 French_Brittany
    0.02857117 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.02870161 Icelandic
    0.02929875 Irish
    0.02959342 Scottish
    0.02973348 Orcadian
    0.03044136 English
    0.03061823 Shetlandic
    0.03063097 Danish
    0.03080346 Belgian
    0.03111374 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.03133332 Austrian
    0.03142971 English_Cornwall
    0.03153554 French_Nord
    0.03239497 French_Alsace
    0.03284300 French_Paris
    0.03393647 Czech
    0.03457507 Swiss_German
    Last edited by Grace O'Malley; 04-14-2020 at 06:09 AM.
    The Irish Brigade's battle cry at Fontenoy, "Cuimhnigí ar Luimneach agus ar feall na Sasanaigh," translates to "Remember Limerick and the treachery of the English." After seeing the devastation caused by the Irish Brigade, the Duke of Cumberland reportedly remarked, "God curse the laws that made those men our enemies".


  7. #67
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    Comparisons with British Isles people:

    Distance to: MX188_scaled
    0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03074691 IRL_BA
    0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
    0.03446410 England_MBA
    0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
    0.03758439 England_IA
    0.04416086 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.04439941 Scotland_LBA
    0.04526137 England_Roman
    0.04642032 Orcadian
    0.04784262 Irish
    0.04838956 Welsh
    0.04924562 English
    0.05016711 Shetlandic
    0.05195102 England_EMBA
    0.05256981 English_Cornwall

    Distance to: MX190_scaled
    0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
    0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
    0.03406376 England_MBA
    0.03560488 IRL_BA
    0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
    0.03887208 England_IA
    0.04044366 England_Roman
    0.04380038 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.04402365 Orcadian
    0.04476116 Irish
    0.04550625 Welsh
    0.04662647 Shetlandic
    0.04731126 English
    0.04943519 English_Cornwall
    0.04975563 England_EMBA

    Distance to: MX192_scaled
    0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
    0.03343274 IRL_BA
    0.03400888 England_MBA
    0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
    0.03849249 England_IA
    0.04532686 Scotland_LBA
    0.04599462 Orcadian
    0.04665161 England_Roman
    0.04721007 Irish
    0.04751994 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.04871952 Welsh
    0.04935383 Shetlandic
    0.04946646 English
    0.05315369 English_Cornwall
    0.05352516 England_EMBA

    Distance to: MX195_scaled
    0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
    0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
    0.03160033 IRL_BA
    0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
    0.03431673 England_MBA
    0.04027800 England_IA
    0.04557179 Scotland_LBA
    0.04824951 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.04877287 England_Roman
    0.04884175 Orcadian
    0.04893182 Irish
    0.04994741 Shetlandic
    0.05147107 Welsh
    0.05280137 English
    0.05332082 England_EMBA
    0.05576292 English_Cornwall


    Last edited by J. Ketch; 04-14-2020 at 06:30 AM.

  8. #68
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    It would be interesting to see if Irish and British get a higher percentage of these samples than they do the Hallstatt samples.
    The Irish Brigade's battle cry at Fontenoy, "Cuimhnigí ar Luimneach agus ar feall na Sasanaigh," translates to "Remember Limerick and the treachery of the English." After seeing the devastation caused by the Irish Brigade, the Duke of Cumberland reportedly remarked, "God curse the laws that made those men our enemies".


  9. #69
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    Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
    44.2 DEU_MA
    17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
    11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
    9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
    44.2 Germanic
    37.4 Celt
    9.2 ImperialRoman
    9.2 Roman


    model:
    Spoiler!


    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
    51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
    33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

    model:
    Spoiler!


    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
    35.2 MX190_scaled
    30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    21.8 MX192_scaled
    12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    0.2 MX188_scaled

    model:
    Spoiler!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    It would be interesting to see if Irish and British get a higher percentage of these samples than they do the Hallstatt samples.
    They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

    Target: English
    Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
    39.6 DEU_MA
    33.0 Scotland_LBA
    16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
    10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
    61.4 Scotland_LBA
    26.6 DEU_MA
    10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
    2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    model:
    Spoiler!


    Target: English
    Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
    56.0 DEU_MA
    44.0 Scotland_LBA

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
    67.4 Scotland_LBA
    32.6 DEU_MA

    model:
    Spoiler!
    The Guanche skulls as a whole are unlike those of modern European Mediterraneans, and resemble northern European series most closely, especially those in which a brachycephalic element is present, as in Burgundian and Alemanni series.
    divided them into clearly differentiated types, which include a Mediterranean, a Nordic, a "Guanche," and an Alpine. The "Guanche" accounts for 50 per cent of the whole on the four islands of Teneriffe, Gomera, Gran Canaria, and Hierro; the Nordic for 31 per cent, the Mediterranean for 13 per cent, and the Alpine
    oldschool anthropology

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    Quote Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian View Post
    Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
    44.2 DEU_MA
    17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
    11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
    9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
    44.2 Germanic
    37.4 Celt
    9.2 ImperialRoman
    9.2 Roman


    model:
    Spoiler!


    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
    51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
    33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

    model:
    Spoiler!


    Target: Swiss_German
    Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
    35.2 MX190_scaled
    30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    21.8 MX192_scaled
    12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    0.2 MX188_scaled

    model:


    They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

    Target: English
    Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
    39.6 DEU_MA
    33.0 Scotland_LBA
    16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
    10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
    61.4 Scotland_LBA
    26.6 DEU_MA
    10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
    2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

    model:


    Target: English
    Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
    56.0 DEU_MA
    44.0 Scotland_LBA

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
    67.4 Scotland_LBA
    32.6 DEU_MA

    model:
    Thanks. I get none with these models either.

    Target: Grace_scaled
    Distance: 1.8717% / 0.01871730
    57.8 Scotland_LBA
    42.2 DEU_MA

    Target: Grace_scaled
    Distance: 1.8360% / 0.01836007
    49.0 Scotland_LBA
    39.0 DEU_MA
    6.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    6.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
    The Irish Brigade's battle cry at Fontenoy, "Cuimhnigí ar Luimneach agus ar feall na Sasanaigh," translates to "Remember Limerick and the treachery of the English." After seeing the devastation caused by the Irish Brigade, the Duke of Cumberland reportedly remarked, "God curse the laws that made those men our enemies".


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