So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Token]

Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman


model:

Spoiler!

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

model:

Spoiler!

DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled

model:


They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

model:


Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA

model:

You can't reject hypothesis with Global25. G25 is meant to reproduce models deemed feasible by Admixtools (quoting Davidski here). But you can get good fits with these samples:

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.2019% / 0.01201917
56.6	Italic_IA
26.8	Celtic
10.6	DEU_MA
6.0	ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.9720% / 0.00972016
42.0	Italic_IA
40.2	DEU_MA
15.4	Celtic
2.4	ITA_Rome_Imperial

Not only the fits are good, but the models also make a lot of sense. A lot of Germanic in Swiss Germans, and more Celtic and Italic in Frenchies. By the way, i used all of the Iron Age Swiss samples for Celtic and all of the Iron Age Italian samples for Italic_IA.

[SharpFork]

Look at the dark blue: pre-celtic.

I have always seen that they are named pre-celtic or proto-celtic. Maybe here there is the real deal:

I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

[J. Ketch]

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

[SharpFork]

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.

[Kamal900]

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.

[SharpFork]

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.

Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

[Kamal900]

Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

Hmm, then they could be mostly of Bell Beaker origins rather than coming from assimilated natives or mixed with the natives. I mean, the fact that the Swiss and others are genetically distinct from the late La Tene culture tells us that there had been admixtures and migrations to the region in Roman and early middle age periods. The Celts of Western Europe like France and Iberia seem genetically more or less distinct from these Celts, no?

[J. Ketch]

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.

I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.

[SharpFork]

I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.

There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

[ninjaboy]

This is possible. Maybe it will turn out that we are heavily underestimating the impact of Romans in Europe. But these samples are too northern and i'm still trying to digest the idea. What i'm sure is that La Tené is as Celtic as you can get.

At first, the Romans couldn't tell the Celts and Germanic people apart and often confused them for each other. Only later they found out that Celts and Germanic people were distinct ethnic groups and they started to differentiate between the two. The fact is that both were described as tall, very pale, light-haired and- blue-eyed people. Anyways, who would have thought that the Celts originated in Germany/Austria while ALL Germanic tribes originated in Scandivanivia to move from there to Germany?